Date: 06/22/95 12:49:50 PMFrom: Bruce Hallman (deadfish)Subject: Milagro Ridge and Measure A.I'm having a hard time deciding how to vote on the Measure A.  Obviously, we need to try to protect the ridges/greenspace.  But it seems like the development deal proposed at Milagro Ridge has some really good conservation sweeteners.  I noticed in the Trib yesterday that Mike Vasey has come out in support of the development, and I have lots of respect for Mike's "green" credentials.I would really like to see a rendering of the ridge with the housing units shown.  Does one exist?  If so, I would like to post a scanned copy on my Pacifica Web page.'     *   . .      '      )     +         `  .     '     ` bruce_AT_hallman.org. +     .         ,    * ' .      '     .     http://www.hallman.org/~bruce/_/_/ ' _/_/ _/  _/_/  Subscribe to the pacifica-l EMail: listserv_AT_netcom.comDate: 07/10/95 06:42:03 AMFrom: Robert Olague (rgolague_AT_slip.net)Subject: LatecomerSorry if this has been hashed over already but I just arrived.I'm still undecided on measure "A"Is it better to take the land given at the cost of housing on lower milagraridge and be assured of getting the land and creating jobsorIs this a ploy to trade unuseable land to get the city to allow high densityhousing with no regard to the surrounding community.Regardless I hope all will vote there belief on tuesday.---/********Bob Olague********\/****Rgolague_AT_Slip.Net****\Date: 07/10/95 06:42:26 AMFrom: Dave Yuhas (dyuhas_AT_aimnet.com)Subject: Re: LatecomerI voted against it after reading the arguments in the voter pamphlet.  I didso for two reasons: first it sounded like a deal with the devil -  You giveme this huge exemption to the HPD and I'll donate land to the GGNRA.Second, the ad hominum attack on the motives of the opponents turned me off.My wife vote for it, so my vote was cancelled out.>Sorry if this has been hashed over already but I just arrived.>>I'm still undecided on measure "A">>Is it better to take the land given at the cost of housing on lower milagra>ridge and be assured of getting the land and creating jobs>>or>>Is this a ploy to trade unuseable land to get the city to allow high density>housing with no regard to the surrounding community.>>Regardless I hope all will vote there belief on tuesday.>--->/********Bob Olague********\>/****Rgolague_AT_Slip.Net****\>>>Dave Yuhas                         Christine Krenzel, CPAdave_AT_crl.com                        415 495 1916 / 415 777 9798 (fax)Date: 07/10/95 11:54:10 AMFrom: Bruce Hallman (deadfish)Subject: Measure AI too am wavering on how to vote on Measure A.As I see it, it is a question of whether there are enough "sweeteners" in the deal to trade off development with conservation.  I wish I could see a rendering of the ridge, with the constructing shown, but I read that it is mostly limited to the "quarry" area, ... and the habitat conservation work / trail construction is impressive.  Can permitting development in privately held "green space" be justified with enough "green" sweeteners?  At some point, I say yes.>Sorry if this has been hashed over already but I just arrived.>>I'm still undecided on measure "A">>Is it better to take the land given at the cost of housing on lower milagr>ridge and be assured of getting the land and creating jobs>>or>>Is this a ploy to trade unuseable land to get the city to allow high densit>housing with no regard to the surrounding community.>>Regardless I hope all will vote there belief on tuesday.>--->/********Bob Olague********\>/****Rgolague_AT_Slip.Net****\>>'     *   . .      '      )     +         `  .     '     ` bruce_AT_hallman.org. +     .         ,    * ' .      '     .     http://www.hallman.org/~bruce/_/_/ ' _/_/ _/  _/_/  Subscribe to the pacifica-l EMail: listserv_AT_netcom.comDate: 07/10/95 11:54:17 AMFrom: Walter Dmytrenko (dwalt_AT_mercury.sfsu.edu)Subject: no subject (file transmission)my vote on Measure A will be No. principally my decision is based, or biased, by the concerns of the residents who are closest to the development site and as to how it will affect their property. literature that i have received regarding the merits of the project have primarily been a glossy "Vote Yes" and a simple printed "Vote No" pamphlets.the Vote Yes pamphlet included a list of noteworthy pacifica citizens, including many with whom i am familiar. i suspect that most of those mentioned live away from the immediate area of the development, and some live close to areas that will be positively impacted by the land ceded to the GGNRA. included in the list are individuals who have long labored on behalf of green space, and who at this time have careers, position and personal momentum to maintain. i am led to believe that these individuals will sacrifice the concern of immediately affected residents for a "greater good". the Vote No pamphlet included in addition to the endorsation of unnamed immediate residents, the endorsation of COW - the small grouping of neighborhood watchdogs.that the development will bring jobs and additional resources to the city of pacifica, is worth some argument, but the gain in jobs is minimal and short term, and residential properties unhappily can be looked at as an added cost to overall city finances. currently there are many properties in pacifica that are available for purchase and that would welcome new citizens to the community. these properties and the neighborhoods would benefit greatly from the infusion of new owners.those are my reasons for voting No on measure A.walter dmytrenko, pacifica, californiaDate: 07/10/95 11:54:30 AMFrom: Dave Yuhas (dyuhas_AT_aimnet.com)Subject: Re: Tunnel info forum, Caltrans: "66 feet wide is minimum"Bruce,Forget about CalTrans' motives.  Don't get caught up in conspiracy theories.The issue we have to resolve is how to get the federal funding transferred("deobligated") from the bypass to a tunnel alternative.CalTrans wants to build the bypass.  The San Mateo County Board ofSupervisors want the bypass.  The people directly affected by the bypassdon't want it.  Let's concentrate on changing the politicians' minds ratherthan flaying CalTrans - who deserves it.>Thinking back on last Tuesday's tunnel info forum one thing keeps going >around in my mind.  How is it that a 46 foot tunnel is not adaquate, and why >is Caltran now saying that 66 feet is the minimum they consider safe?>>Driving through the top deck of the Bay Bridge tunnel through Treasure >Island, it dawned on me... that tunnel appears to be five 12 foot lanes wide >(5*12=60 feet).  A 66 foot wide tunnel would be able to be expanded to a >four lane highway!>>Again and again, it appears that Caltrans has the hidden motive of expanding  >Highway 1 to be four lanes all the way to Half Moon Bay.  If this is their >agenda they should pursue this policy publicly in the open.  >>'     *   . .      '      )     +         `  .     '     ` bruce_AT_hallman.org>. +     .         ,    * ' .      '     .     http://www.hallman.org/~bruce/>_/_/ ' _/_/ _/  _/_/  Subscribe to the pacifica-l EMail: listserv_AT_netcom.com>>-------------------------------------------------------------Dave Yuhas          |      Christine Krenzel, CPAdave_AT_crl.com        |      415-912-5840 / 415-912-5848 (fax)-------------------------------------------------------------Date: 07/12/95 02:53:51 PMFrom: Bruce Hallman (deadfish)Subject: Does anybody know if Measure A passed or failed?Here I am at work, the day after the election, and I don't know the results?  Does anybody know if Measure A passed or failed?'     *   . .      '      )     +         `  .     '     ` bruce_AT_hallman.org. +     .         ,    * ' .      '     .     http://www.hallman.org/~bruce/_/_/ ' _/_/ _/  _/_/  Subscribe to the pacifica-l EMail: listserv_AT_netcom.comDate: 07/12/95 02:53:55 PMFrom: Michael Slaughter (slaughtr_AT_crl.com)Subject: Re: Does anybody know if Measure A passed or failed?I do (if one is to believe the PTrib): It failed, 58% to 42%.Date: 07/12/95 02:54:04 PMFrom: Robert Olague (rgolague_AT_slip.net)Via: Netcom SFSubject: Re: Does anybody know if Measure A passed or failed?>Here I am at work, the day after the election, and I don't know the results?  >Does anybody know if Measure A passed or failed?Failed.Front Page of the Tribune reads "Measure "A" soundley defeated"VotesNo.....3,388Yes   2,45428.55% turnout   5,845 of our 20,472 registered voters went to the polls---/********Bob Olague********\/****Rgolague_AT_Slip.Net****\Date: 07/12/95 02:54:08 PMFrom: Dave Yuhas (dyuhas_AT_aimnet.com)Subject: Re: Does anybody know if Measure A passed or failed?Bruce,It failed; 58% for.>Here I am at work, the day after the election, and I don't know the results?  >Does anybody know if Measure A passed or failed?>>'     *   . .      '      )     +         `  .     '     ` bruce_AT_hallman.org>. +     .         ,    * ' .      '     .     http://www.hallman.org/~bruce/>_/_/ ' _/_/ _/  _/_/  Subscribe to the pacifica-l EMail: listserv_AT_netcom.com>>-------------------------------------------------------------Dave Yuhas          |      Christine Krenzel, CPAdave_AT_crl.com        |      415-912-5840 / 415-912-5848 (fax)-------------------------------------------------------------Date: 07/12/95 02:54:18 PMFrom: Robert Olague (rgolague_AT_slip.net)Subject: Tunnel Fest>From the Tribune today I see there will be a "Tunnel Festival" this weekend. For those of you not recieving the Tribune: On Sunday July 16, from 10 a.m. to 4 p.m. Shamrock Ranch at the end ofPeralta Road will be open to the public. The festival will have pony rides, a petting zoo, clowns, art and photoexhibits, a 10k run, and live music throughout the day.  Donations for admission are $7 for adults and $3 for children. No pets allowed.For more information call 522-2322 (as listed in Tribune)---/********Bob Olague********\/****Rgolague_AT_Slip.Net****\Date: 07/13/95 06:42:17 AMFrom: Bruce Hallman (deadfish)Subject: Re: Tunnel Fest/Welcome Bob Olague/future of Pacifica On-LineBob O., Belatedly, welcome to the pacifica-l list.  I appreciate your Tunnel Fest announcement posting, feel free to post similar announcments in the future.You may not know any history of the pacific-l list...it started in a brain storm four months ago, when Dave Yuhas and I were EMail corresponding about how to get Pacficia on-line.  We both considered (and I tried, last November) to start a pacifica newsgroup in the ba.* heirarchy, and was voted down due to lack of interest.  Our long term hope is to build online interest about Pacifica, and probably we will attempt to start a Pacifica newsgroup in the future when we can muster enough votes to get into the ba.* heirarchy.  Where the pacifca-l list goes in the long run depends on who joins & participates and only time will tell.  I presume the list will eventually take on a life of it's own.I am curious how you imagine the future for the list, please tell us.  Personally, I hope that it can serve as a forum for discussion of local politics, and serve as a vehicle to make community announcements.  In the next few years I expect that the list will play a role in grass root politics, through the ability to organize turn-outs at city council meetings and/or letter writing campaigns, petitions, etc..I have been nudging Maxine Gonsalves to get EMail and join the list, but she is still getting it together.  I would like to see all the local politicians  active online, and expect that over time it will happen.Not to mention the nascent Pacifica Web pages... people who might want to participate in fun or useful things for a Pacifica Web page are welcome to use some space on my Web server.  Plus, I think that Jeffrey Lawrence is still looking for help on his Pacifica Chamber of Commerce Web page project.  Also check out bigcritr_AT_netcom.com and his "ABAG" Pacifica Web page.  Do you know of other people interested in the growth of a Pacifica online?Do you konw people in the schools/libraries/or PB&R, to potentially get connected?  ...surf reports, little league, channel 8, school lunch menus, city council agendas, garage sale announcments, local politics, child care, Pacifica historical society, car pooling, and more?'     *   . .      '      )     +         `  .     '     ` bruce_AT_hallman.org. +     .         ,    * ' .      '     .     http://www.hallman.org/~bruce/_/_/ ' _/_/ _/  _/_/  Subscribe to the pacifica-l EMail: listserv_AT_netcom.comDate: 07/13/95 06:42:21 AMFrom: Walter Dmytrenko (dwalt_AT_mercury.sfsu.edu)Subject: Measure A does not pass              (((((               (((((((((( ((          (((((((((((((()))         ((((((((((((((((((         ==================         | ( O ) / ( O ) ||           \======/  ======/                {    L_    }}                    \  :-O-: }}   measure A did not pass according to              \\|   |//    npr radio reports. vote was 42% yes,               \\|//      58% no. no mention of how manyregistered voters came to the election. . . wDate: 07/13/95 06:42:28 AMFrom: Robert Olague (rgolague_AT_slip.net)Via: Netcom SFSubject: Measure A>Here I am at work, the day after the election, and I don't know the results?  >Does anybody know if Measure A passed or failed?Failed.Front Page of the Tribune reads "Measure "A" soundley defeated"VotesNo.....3,388Yes   2,45428.55% turnout   5,845 of our 20,472 registered voters went to the pollsDate: 07/13/95 06:43:31 AMFrom: Scott T Boyd (scott_AT_hax.com)Via: Netcom SFSubject: Re: future of Pacifica On-LineAt 3:40 PM 7/12/95, Bruce Hallman wrote:>Not to mention the nascent Pacifica Web pages... people who might want to>participate in fun or useful things for a Pacifica Web page are welcome to>use some space on my Web server.  Plus, I think that Jeffrey Lawrence is>still looking for help on his Pacifica Chamber of Commerce Web page project.>Also check out bigcritr_AT_netcom.com and his "ABAG" Pacifica Web page.Since Bruce mentions it, I'm always looking for people who want to helpexpand the Montara web site, too.  Even though we're separated by amountain or two, our two communities have a lot in common, and share somehistory and destiny (or is that density?).Regards,scott boydhttp://www.montara.com/Date: 07/13/95 06:43:47 AMFrom: Robert Olague (rgolague_AT_slip.net)Subject: Re: Tunnel Fest/Welcome Bob Olague/future of Pacifica On-Line>Belatedly, welcome to the pacifica-l list.  Thanks>I appreciate your Tunnel Fest announcement posting, feel free to post >similar announcments in the future.It's good to find a list that concentrates on our local community.>You may not know any history of the pacific-l list...it started in a brain >storm four months ago, when Dave Yuhas and I were EMail corresponding >about >how to get Pacficia on-line.  We both considered (and I tried, last >November) to start a pacifica newsgroup in the ba.* heirarchy, and was voted >down due to lack of interest.  Our long term hope is to build online >interest about Pacifica, and probably we will attempt to start a Pacifica >newsgroup in the future when we can muster enough votes to get into the ba.* >heirarchy.  How would a newsgroup be better than a mailing list? To get more exposureyou could post a message to NEW-LIST_AT_VM1.NODAK.EDU which is a list of newmailing lists>Where the pacifca-l list goes in the long run depends on who joins & >participates and only time will tell.  I presume the list will eventually >take on a life of it's own.>I am curious how you imagine the future for the list, please tell us.  >>Personally, I hope that it can serve as a forum for discussion of local >politics, and serve as a vehicle to make community announcements.  In the >next few years I expect that the list will play a role in grass root >politics, through the ability to organize turn-outs at city council meetings >and/or letter writing campaigns, petitions, etc..>>I have been nudging Maxine Gonsalves to get EMail and join the list, but she >is still getting it together.  I would like to see all the local politicians  >active online, and expect that over time it will happen.As more people get online e-mail will be a useful and necessary tool to getfeed back from the community. Local politicians would be amiss to disregardwhat could be a very strong and vocal segment of our population.Unfortunately we are currently a very small group and hardly represenitiveof our community. I suspect that things are about to change though.>Do you know of other people interested in the growth of a Pacifica online?Curently I am trying to get enough machines together to hold a begginingcomputer skills class for the 4-H kids. Eventually I was hoping to evolvethem to online communications. A local BBS was what I originally envisionedbut have been recentley thinking that mailing lists and web pages may befaster, easier and more cost effective. That's still down the road a bit though.>Do you konw people in the schools/libraries/or PB&R, to potentially get >connected?  ...surf reports, little league, channel 8, school lunch menus, >city council agendas, garage sale announcments, local politics, child care, >Pacifica historical society, car pooling, and more?All I know I got from reading the paper. (Will Rogers)I'll post whatever I come across and spread the word about the list. I thinkthere is great potential for information and resource gathering if enoughpeople get online. Perhaps we could get an enterprising student or group from local schoolsthat have internet access to post events to the list. ---/********Bob Olague********\/****Rgolague_AT_Slip.Net****\Date: 07/13/95 10:11:26 AMFrom: Bruce Hallman (deadfish)Subject: Future of Pacifica On-Line>How would a newsgroup be better than a mailing list? IMO, newsgroups serve large groups better than mailing lists because of the ease for the reader choosing which threads of discussions to follow.  Even digested mailing lists require the reader to download all the threads of discussion, and then choose which to read.  Not to mention that netcom doesn't support digesting of mailing lists at the moment, so the pacifica-l would need to be manually digested [or with a custom script], and I don't think I feel like doing so much work! .>As more people get online e-mail will be a useful and necessary tool to ge>feed back from community. Local politicians would be amiss to disregard...You may have heard of the (urban legend?) where the new comer yuppies who moved to small rural communities in Wyoming, and through their EMail, bulletin boards and fax machines, were able to out mobilize the old time locals at the City Council meetings and dominate the local politics, causing resentment among the red necks.>...have been recentley thinking that mailing lists and web pages may be>faster, easier and more cost effective.          ^^^^^^Web pages are amazingly easy.  A good place to learn the "state of the art" is to lurk on the newsgroup comp.infosys.www.users and/or c.i.w.providers.>Perhaps we could get an enterprising student or group from local schools>that have internet access to post events to the list. Anything of community interest would be welcome, I'm sure.  The best would be things which are fun and/or useful.Also, I think that more people lobbying of the City Council to get online would help.  Not to mention, perhaps the Trib could get online, say for the Letters to the Editor page?  Jeffrey Lawrence's Chamber of Commerce page has potential, Jeffrey?  Are you there?  How is it going?'     *   . .      '      )     +         `  .     '     ` bruce_AT_hallman.org. +     .         ,    * ' .      '     .     http://www.hallman.org/~bruce/_/_/ ' _/_/ _/  _/_/  Subscribe to the pacifica-l EMail: listserv_AT_netcom.comDate: 07/13/95 10:11:48 AMFrom: Dave Yuhas (dyuhas_AT_aimnet.com) Subject: Re: Future of Pacifica On-Line>Also, I think that more people lobbying of the City Council to get online >would help.  Not to mention, perhaps the Trib could get online, say for the >Letters to the Editor page?  How about prodding the Trib to do a story about the list?-------------------------------------------------------------Dave Yuhas          |      Christine Krenzel, CPAdave_AT_crl.com        |      415-912-5840 / 415-912-5848 (fax)-------------------------------------------------------------Date: 07/13/95 10:11:54 AMFrom: LSTEERE.US.ORACLE.COM (LSTEERE_AT_us.oracle.com)Via: Netcom SFSubject: Re: future of Pacifica On-Line--Boundary-13273959-0-0Scott: did you call Mitch yet? He'd be really happy, he said, to have his bypass/tunnel images up on the web/Date: 07/13/95 12:53:31 PMFrom: Scott T Boyd (scott_AT_hax.com)Subject: Re: Future of Pacifica On-LineAt 7:25 AM 7/13/95, Bruce Hallman wrote:...>Also, I think that more people lobbying of the City Council to get online>would help.  Not to mention, perhaps the Trib could get online, say for the>Letters to the Editor page?Not to say that Pacifica is behind the times (just kidding) but the HalfMoon Bay Review is (experimentally) online.  It's not exactly an "official"presence (they're just getting their feet wet), but you can send mail tothem at hmbreview_AT_hax.com.Just a comment -- I find it interesting that there seems to be such amarked dichotomy between the two areas on either side of the mountain.We're mere minutes apart (I'm actually closer physically to Pacifica thanto HMB here in Montara), yet many people over here act like Pacifica is onthe other side of the world.  While some of Pacifica seems to be anextension of a much larger urban area, I know there are parts of Pacificawhere people chose to live there for much the same reasons that peoplechoose to live here.  The bypass/tunnel issue sure has brought many of usto realize that we share some common interests and destiny.  I hope more ofus can find some common ground.Regards,scott boydEditor, Montara Mountain Free Presshttp://www.montara.com/Date: 07/13/95 12:53:43 PMFrom: Meredith Tanner (merde_AT_crl.com)Subject: Re: Future of Pacifica On-Line Scott Boyd:> Just a comment -- I find it interesting that there seems to be such a> marked dichotomy between the two areas on either side of the mountain.> We're mere minutes apart (I'm actually closer physically to Pacifica than> to HMB here in Montara), yet many people over here act like Pacifica is on> the other side of the world.  While some of Pacifica seems to be an> extension of a much larger urban area, I know there are parts of Pacifica> where people chose to live there for much the same reasons that people> choose to live here.  The bypass/tunnel issue sure has brought many of us> to realize that we share some common interests and destiny.  I hope more of> us can find some common ground.it amazes me how weird non-Pacificans' views of Pacificaare.  when i tell people where i live, they either make ajoke about fog (har har) or get a snotty attitude becausei live "in the suburbs."  while a lot of pacifica is prettysuburban in appearance, it doesn't FEEL like one of thosesoulless acres-of-tract-houses kinds of places; it has a much more small-town atmosphere.speaking of atmosphere, my fiance and i are about to movefurther down into Pacifica, to the Pacific View apts. (rightbehind Eureka Square).  can anyone tell us anything aboutthe neighborhood?  it's pretty obviously nicer than the place we're in now (up by Fairmont Plaza), but anythinganyone can tell me about the area would be great.  it lookslike an easy walk down to the area around the pier (althoughnot an easy walk back up!); is there anything really greatdown there that i might not have discovered?  what places are good to eat?  i noticed a mexican place (?) with a pooltable; is that place ok, or should i steer cleer of it?and, speaking of the pier, has anyone else here fished fromit?  i'm a little leery of eating fish caught so close tothe shore (and to the city)... have any of you tried it?mDate: 07/13/95 03:26:10 PMFrom: Bruce Hallman (deadfish)Subject: Re: Future of Pacifica On-Line / the Trib>>Also, I think that more people lobbying of the City Council to get online>>would help.  Not to mention, perhaps the Trib could get online, say for th>>Letters to the Editor page?  >>How about prodding the Trib to do a story about the list?Definately yes, I have been thinking about it, but have stalled slightly just to allow it to develop enough so that there is something of substance to actually "see" when you look at it.  I think the mailing list is probably ready, but maybe the Web page(s) needs a little more work.  Do you (or does anybody) know who to prod at the Trib?'     *   . .      '      )     +         `  .     '     ` bruce_AT_hallman.org. +     .         ,    * ' .      '     .     http://www.hallman.org/~bruce/_/_/ ' _/_/ _/  _/_/  Subscribe to the pacifica-l EMail: listserv_AT_netcom.comDate: 07/13/95 03:26:22 PMFrom: Steve Eppley (seppley_AT_alumni.caltech.edu)Subject: Re: Future of Pacifica On-Line>>How would a newsgroup be better than a mailing list? >>IMO, newsgroups serve large groups better than mailing lists because of the >ease for the reader choosing which threads of discussions to follow.[snip]There is a downside to newsgroups, though.  You each depend on yourinternet provider not to purge messages before you've had a chance tolook at them.  (My provider purges most messages which are 4 days old.)Since email lists send to all subscribers, the subscribers areguaranteed that they will have a chance to read all the messages.They don't need to remember to check a newsgroup frequently.  (Ofcourse, one could program one's computer to automatically fetch thenewsgroup's message headers, and maybe the message bodies as well,in the middle of the night; then you'd have the advantages of newsgroup thread management without the fear of purges.)---Steve     (Steve Eppley    seppley_AT_alumni.caltech.edu)Date: 07/13/95 04:05:32 PMFrom: Bruce Hallman (deadfish)Via: Netcom SFSubject: Eureka Square neighborhoodMerideth wrote:>it amazes me how weird non-Pacificans' views of Pacifica>are.  when i tell people where i live, they either make a>joke about fog (har har) or get a snotty attitude because>i live "in the suburbs."  Those of us lucky enough to live in sunny Linda Mar Valley deserve to have a snotty attitude .  My point being that there are even attitude differences between each of the different parts of Pacifica.  [And Montara is a million miles away.]>speaking of atmosphere, my fiance and i are about to move>further down into Pacifica, to the Pacific View apts. (right>behind Eureka Square).  can anyone tell us anything about>the neighborhood?  The McCloskey Castle house, next door, is one of the most colorful landmarks in the city IMO.  Built in 1914, by the family of former congressman Pete McCloskey, it's history includes, bootleggers during prohibition, the Coast Guard during WWII, and a physician sent to San Quentin prison for performing abortions.>down there that i might not have discovered?  what places >are good to eat?  i noticed a mexican place (?) with a pool>table; is that place ok, or should i steer cleer of it?Are you talking about Winter's Tavern?  I doubt you need to steer clear of anything in the Eureka Square/Palmetto/Sharp Park Districts.  Take advantage of the farmer's market, you also will be walking distance to the Oceana Pool and the main Library, and the City Council Chambers.  The Palmetto district in general has the most "charactor" of the Pacifica neighborhoods, almost-funky shops, Fog Fest, sewage treatment plant , etc..One of my favorite places in Pacifica is the tortilla factory on Francisco Blvd. which sells extremely fresh tortilla's for next to nothing, and has a simple but excellent take-out buritto bar.   >and, speaking of the pier, has anyone else here fished from>it?  i'm a little leery of eating fish caught so close to>the shore (and to the city)... have any of you tried it?Going out on the pier during a winter storm with 30 foot waves breaking over the deck will put the fear of God in you! [check out the picture on my Web page.]  I wonder about fishing from a pier which doubles as the support for the main sewerpipe outfall for the entire city.  Take a look at the water boiling up about 200 feet out from the end of the pier, you guessed it!Still, the pier ranks as one of the top regional fishing spots according to both Tom Sinestra and Jim Klinger.  Perhaps eating the migratory fish such as salmon, sturgeon, halibut or strippers you can catch would be not be a significant risk.  You might want to stay away from the flounders.'     *   . .      '      )     +         `  .     '     ` bruce_AT_hallman.org. +     .         ,    * ' .      '     .     http://www.hallman.org/~bruce/_/_/ ' _/_/ _/  _/_/  Subscribe to the pacifica-l EMail: listserv_AT_netcom.comDate: 07/14/95 06:38:46 AMFrom: Robert Olague (rgolague_AT_slip.net)Subject: Re: Eureka Square neighborhood>>down there that i might not have discovered?  what places >>are good to eat?  i noticed a mexican place (?) with a pool>>table; is that place ok, or should i steer cleer of it?>>Are you talking about Winter's Tavern?  I think he's talking about Los Amigos which is a beer and wine bar. Itsometimes gets a littler rough in there along with Winters. They both seemto attract some hard core drunks.---/********Bob Olague********\/****Rgolague_AT_Slip.Net****\Date: 07/14/95 06:38:51 AMFrom: Robert Olague (rgolague_AT_slip.net)Subject: Re: Future of Pacifica On-Line>>>How would a newsgroup be better than a mailing list? >>>>IMO, newsgroups serve large groups better than mailing lists because of the >>ease for the reader choosing which threads of discussions to follow.>[snip]>>There is a downside to newsgroups, though.  You each depend on your>internet provider not to purge messages before you've had a chance to>look at them.  (My provider purges most messages which are 4 days old.)>>Since email lists send to all subscribers, the subscribers are>guaranteed that they will have a chance to read all the messages.>They don't need to remember to check a newsgroup frequently.  (Of>course, one could program one's computer to automatically fetch the>newsgroup's message headers, and maybe the message bodies as well,>in the middle of the night; then you'd have the advantages of >newsgroup thread management without the fear of purges.)I would favor a mailing list be kept until the amount of posts becomecumbersome or an abundance of off topic threads show up.---/********Bob Olague********\/****Rgolague_AT_Slip.Net****\Date: 07/14/95 10:19:01 AMFrom: Bruce Hallman (deadfish)Subject: The best burrito it Pacifia?I nominate... [forgive me for the bad spelling]Guerrero's Taqueria, the new place on Hwy 1 at VallemarThe tortilla factory, I forget the proper name, on Francisco BlvdLa Playa, at Pedro Point Shopping CenterAnd, in a catagory of it's own The Taco Bell at Linda Mar beach, for it's $0.69 low fat bean burritos ...with a million dollar view.'     *   . .      '      )     +         `  .     '     ` bruce_AT_hallman.org. +     .         ,    * ' .      '     .     http://www.hallman.org/~bruce/_/_/ ' _/_/ _/  _/_/  Subscribe to the pacifica-l EMail: listserv_AT_netcom.comDate: 07/14/95 12:37:13 PMFrom: Rian Schmidt (rian_AT_dekinai.esd.sgi.com)Subject: Burrito info...> The tortilla factory, I forget the proper name, on Francisco BlvdI believe that you're talking about El Gran de Oro.  Mmmmmmm....-- Rian SchmidtDigital Media Solutions DivisionSilicon GraphicsMountain View, CA USArian_AT_dekinai.esd.sgi.comhttp://www-leland.stanford.edu/~december"For a dame like this, I'd sell out to Satan --	but the devil himself was ahead of me in line."		--Malcolm Douglas, from "Pure Sweet Hell"     Date: 07/14/95 12:38:24 PMFrom: Dave Yuhas (dyuhas_AT_aimnet.com)Subject: Re: Future of Pacifica On-LineBruce,How about mounting a demo at the community center?  I could lug a computerdown there. If we had several (or a projection panel) we could show a lot offolks how to use the list.Just a thought...-------------------------------------------------------------Dave Yuhas          |      Christine Krenzel, CPAdave_AT_crl.com        |      415-912-5840 / 415-912-5848 (fax)-------------------------------------------------------------Date: 07/14/95 12:38:38 PMFrom: Dave Yuhas (dyuhas_AT_aimnet.com)Subject: Re: Burrito info...>>> The tortilla factory, I forget the proper name, on Francisco Blvd>>I believe that you're talking about El Gran de Oro.  Mmmmmmm....I used to go there a few years ago but eventually stopped because the peopleworking there were so unfriendly.  They seemed scared to say a word tocustomers, not just me. -------------------------------------------------------------Dave Yuhas          |      Christine Krenzel, CPAdave_AT_crl.com        |      415-912-5840 / 415-912-5848 (fax)-------------------------------------------------------------Date: 07/14/95 12:38:50 PMFrom: Rian Schmidt (rian_AT_dekinai.esd.sgi.com)Subject: Re: Burrito info...On Jul 14, 10:54am, Dave Yuhas wrote:> Subject: Re: Burrito info...> >> >> The tortilla factory, I forget the proper name, on Francisco Blvd> >> >I believe that you're talking about El Gran de Oro.  Mmmmmmm....>> I used to go there a few years ago but eventually stopped because the people> working there were so unfriendly.  They seemed scared to say a word to> customers, not just me.>I think that the most of the people that work there speak English as adistant second language.  The food is great, and frankly, their attitudestrikes me exactly like I would expect Mexican service.  Mexican service isjust not like your typical "have a nice day" American service.  My experience,both here and in Mexico, is that, barring American tourist spots, Mexicanservice is abrupt by American standards.  The downside is that Americancustomers feel their pride bruised because Mexican service doesn't includeall the smileys and sniveling that American service does.  The upside is thatit's a little more honest way of dealing with another person doing a servicejob.Anyway, El Gran de Oro makes great burritos.  Look at the transaction as abusiness deal and nothing more, and you will get a dandy meal for poco dinero.Rian> -------------------------------------------------------------> Dave Yuhas          |      Christine Krenzel, CPA> dave_AT_crl.com        |      415-912-5840 / 415-912-5848 (fax)> ------------------------------------------------------------->-- End of excerpt from Dave Yuhas-- Rian SchmidtDigital Media Solutions DivisionSilicon GraphicsMountain View, CA USArian_AT_dekinai.esd.sgi.comhttp://www-leland.stanford.edu/~december"For a dame like this, I'd sell out to Satan --	but the devil himself was ahead of me in line."		--Malcolm Douglas, from "Pure Sweet Hell"     Date: 07/14/95 03:09:17 PMFrom: Robert Olague (rgolague_AT_slip.net)Subject: Re: Future of Pacifica On-LineForwarded to list by Bob Olague>>Bob Olague wrote:>>I would favor a mailing list be kept until the amount of posts become>>cumbersome or an abundance of off topic threads show up.>>How much does Netcom charge for serving the pacifica-l list?>>Netcom's service may be too sluggish.  It took quite a while for my >previous message to be echoed back to me.  Perhaps another list >server provider could do a better job?>>---Steve     (Steve Eppley    seppley_AT_alumni.caltech.edu)>>Date: 07/14/95 03:09:30 PMFrom: Robert Olague (rgolague_AT_slip.net)Subject: Re: The best burrito it Pacifia?>I nominate... [forgive me for the bad spelling]>>Guerrero's Taqueria, the new place on Hwy 1 at Vallemar>The tortilla factory, I forget the proper name, on Francisco Blvd>La Playa, at Pedro Point Shopping CenterLa Playa has my vote! I wasn't impressed with the taqueria but I went right after it opened. I'll try it again when they settle in. The kids don'tcare for the big meaty burritos so we usually make a second stop to pick upa ten pack of tacos at Taco Bell. So what about your nominations for chinese?I like Kay Hueng #2 in Pacific Manor for take out. They have this greatmushroom dish and keep a stock of my favorite, Pork buns. The fortunecookies are almost always stale, but I don't go for the cookies anyways.---/********Bob Olague********\/****Rgolague_AT_Slip.Net****\Date: 07/14/95 03:09:36 PMFrom: LSTEERE.US.ORACLE.COM (LSTEERE_AT_us.oracle.com)Subject: Re: The best burrito it Pacifia?For Chinese, I have a real soft spot for Mr. Lee, at the San Pedro Restaurant. He has been distributing tunnel information and gently educating his diners for months now, so we should support him!Date: 07/17/95 06:57:56 AMFrom: Meredith Tanner (merde_AT_crl.com)Subject: Re: The best burrito it Pacifia?> So what about your nominations for chinese?> > I like Kay Hueng #2 in Pacific Manor for take out. They have this great> mushroom dish and keep a stock of my favorite, Pork buns. The fortune> cookies are almost always stale, but I don't go for the cookies anyways.the only Chinese food in Pacifica i've eaten was atTam's, and it's always been great.  as for Mexican,i also vote for La Playa.  does anyone know how theThai place is?pork buns are great, but i make my own.  (mostly ialso make my own Thai, too, so the restaurant ispretty much immaterial, but it's good to know incase i have guests.)mDate: 07/17/95 06:58:01 AMFrom: Bruce Hallman (deadfish)Subject: Burrito info...(the winner is?) El Gran de OroRE: El Gran de Oro>> I used to go there a few years ago but eventually stopped because the peo>> working there were so unfriendly.  They seemed scared to say a word to>> customers, not just me.I view the attitide there as modesty or shyness as opposed to scared or unfriendly.  In my opinion, they are basic, simple, & honest, and this is refreshingly unpretentious.Don't expect to get any yuppy style buritto with black beans, or even whole beans.  Just a carefully made simple buritto made with pure, fresh ingredients for a cheap price.  [Don't forget to leave them a tip in the tip jar on the counter.]Or skip the burittos and just shop for your tortilla's there, because the tortilla's they sell are about 10 times better than you can buy at Safeway, and at about half the cost.'     *   . .      '      )     +         `  .     '     ` bruce_AT_hallman.org. +     .         ,    * ' .      '     .     http://www.hallman.org/~bruce/_/_/ ' _/_/ _/  _/_/  Subscribe to the pacifica-l EMail: listserv_AT_netcom.comDate: 07/17/95 06:58:25 AMFrom: Alyssa Jenkins (alyssaj_AT_netcom.com)Subject: Re: NEW: pacifica-l - The City of Pacifica, Californiaholy cow........you're kidding??in a town of 40,000, we get our own listserv?? :)  will wonders never cease.question:  what's the purpose of the list?  is it to perpetuate a particular viewpoint (i.e., pro-tunnel), or just to discuss stuff in general??wow....i'm really curious about this list. :) alyssa on terra nova :)------"And remember, my sentimental friend - a heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you are loved by others."							--The Wizard of OzDate: 07/17/95 09:34:02 AMFrom: Bruce Hallman (deadfish)Subject: Restaurants in Pacifica.>the only Chinese food in Pacifica i've eaten was at>Tam's, and it's always been great.  I like Tam's too, they of course sell the "American-style" Chinese food, this being Pacifica.  But, if you ask them, they are happy to make "San Francisco-style" Chinese food, I especially like the chow fun they make which is excellent.>does anyone know how the Thai place is?On Francisco Blvd, I've eaten their twice, and they do a pretty good job.  It is not hard to spend $30 for a dinner for two.Everybody should check out the Pacifica interactive restaurant review Web page at URL: http://w3.com:80/bayfood/Cities/Pacifica.htmlIt is neat because you can read the restaurant reviews, AND post your own.'     *   . .      '      )     +         `  .     '     ` bruce_AT_hallman.org. +     .         ,    * ' .      '     .     http://www.hallman.org/~bruce/_/_/ ' _/_/ _/  _/_/  Subscribe to the pacifica-l EMail: listserv_AT_netcom.comDate: 07/17/95 09:34:07 AMFrom: Bruce Hallman (deadfish)Subject: Re: NEW: pacifica-l - The City of Pacifica, California***note: at Bob Olague's suggestion I posted an announcment of the pacifica-l on the NEW-LIST listserv on Friday, and since then we have had about ten new subscribers including...***alyssaj_AT_netcom.com has been added to pacifica-l.alyssaj_AT_netcom.com writes>>holy cow........you're kidding??>>in a town of 40,000, we get our own listserv?? :)  will wonders never ceaseWelcome alyssaj, a listserv isn't that big of a deal , I have one for my family too, (aunts, uncles, cousins, brothers, mother)!>question:  what's the purpose of the list?  Anything of general interest is allowed, the list is open and unmoderated.  The only rule is that people should not be mean, and overt commercial advertising is slightly discouraged.>is it to perpetuate a >particular viewpoint (i.e., pro-tunnel), or just to discuss stuff in >general??People are allowed to express, discuss and promote their own viewpoints, pro, anti, or whatever.>wow....i'm really curious about this list. :) In reality the list is fairly new and small (about 30 people), I hope it can  serve as a community bulleting board for discussion of local issues and announcments of local events.  I expect that it will become a factor in local grassroots politics over the next couple years.  You should also be aware of the Pacifica Web pages which exist and are being developed, and are looking for volunteers.'     *   . .      '      )     +         `  .     '     ` bruce_AT_hallman.org. +     .         ,    * ' .      '     .     http://www.hallman.org/~bruce/_/_/ ' _/_/ _/  _/_/  Subscribe to the pacifica-l EMail: listserv_AT_netcom.comDate: 07/17/95 09:34:14 AMFrom: LSTEERE.US.ORACLE.COM (LSTEERE_AT_us.oracle.com)Subject: Re: NEW: pacifica-l - The City of Pacifica, California--Boundary-13348913-0-0Yesterday's Shamrock Ranch Tunnel Festival was a great success, with between 800 and 900 people attending before the windstorm blew everyone away at around 2:30. If the weather had held, no telling how many people would have come through the gates. Thanks to all of the supporters and volunteers who helped make it happen, and to our own Bruce, who faithfully put up more pink ribbon showing the bypass route through the ranch. LeslieDate: 07/17/95 01:04:11 PMFrom: Robert Olague (rgolague_AT_slip.net)Subject: Limelighted list>I suspect that the best publicity of pacifica-l would be an article in the >Tribune.Ideally if the list could take responsibility for an action in the communitythe impact of its existance would be greater. Perhaps an impressive lobbyingeffort for a good cause would bring the list to prominence. That would beputting the importace of the list ahead of the effort though and thatdoesn't seem right. Never mind me, I seem to always be going in circles.---/********Bob Olague********\/****Rgolague_AT_Slip.Net****\Date: 07/17/95 01:04:16 PMFrom: Robert Olague (rgolague_AT_slip.net)Subject: Re: message to NEW-LIST_AT_VM1.NODAK.EDU >>I recieved my New-list Digest today and the Pacifica-I list is there. Now w>>can just stand aside and watch the flood of new subscribers come in.>>Good lord....WHAT HAVE WE DONE!?>You wrote above "Pacifica-I" and actually it should be "pacifica-l"...the >letter "l" is easily confused with the number "1" and the letter "I".  Oh >well, too late to change it now.  Actually, the suffex of "-l" as in "-list" >made sense when I chose it, but I'm having second thoughts.Ah... I was wondering why whenever I typed the address out I errored. I knewit wasn't the number 1 from the messages so I assumed it was a capitol " i". It didn't occur to me that it was a lower case " L ". I cut and pastedthe address and shook my head whenever I used the address. I bet it's thefont I'm using in Eudora that makes the I and l look identical to me. Timeto reconsider Arial.---/********Bob Olague********\/****Rgolague_AT_Slip.Net****\Date: 07/17/95 01:04:20 PMFrom: Robert Olague (rgolague_AT_slip.net)Subject: Tunnel FestUnfortunately I was drafted to help my sister make a quick move so I missedthe Tunnel Fest. My wife went and gave me her impression. She got me a swellT-shirt. Anyone else go? How did you like it? ---/********Bob Olague********\/****Rgolague_AT_Slip.Net****\Date: 07/17/95 01:04:25 PMFrom: David Macy (David.Macy_AT_efi.com)Subject: Re: Restaurants in Pacifica.Reply to:   RE>Restaurants in Pacifica.For anyone who hasn't been there, try El Zocalito in the mini mall at Adobe andLinda Mar. Don't go for the Mexican food, but the El Salvadorian specialtiesare terrific, especially the Pupusas and Prawns in green sauce. BTW - veryfriendly people.--------------------------------------Date: 7/17/95 9:24 AMTo: David MacyFrom: Bruce Hallman>the only Chinese food in Pacifica i've eaten was at>Tam's, and it's always been great.  I like Tam's too, they of course sell the "American-style" Chinese food, this being Pacifica.  But, if you ask them, they are happy to make "San Francisco-style" Chinese food, I especially like the chow fun they make which is excellent.>does anyone know how the Thai place is?On Francisco Blvd, I've eaten their twice, and they do a pretty good job.  It is not hard to spend $30 for a dinner for two.Everybody should check out the Pacifica interactive restaurant review Web page at URL: http://w3.com:80/bayfood/Cities/Pacifica.htmlIt is neat because you can read the restaurant reviews, AND post your own.'     *   . .      '      )     +         `  .     '     ` bruce_AT_hallman.org. +     .         ,    * ' .      '     .     http://www.hallman.org/~bruce/_/_/ ' _/_/ _/  _/_/  Subscribe to the pacifica-l EMail: listserv_AT_netcom.comDate: 07/17/95 01:04:30 PMFrom: Mike Vasey (mvasey_AT_mercury.sfsu.edu)Subject: Re: Restaurants in Pacifica.The "old" Pacific Harry's has "new" owners.  The food there has improvedgreatly.  It where we had the tunnel forum experts to dinner before theevent and it drew rave reviews by all munchers.Personally, I think the Pacifica Thai resturant is really good.Date: 07/17/95 02:05:18 PMFrom: Bruce Hallman (deadfish)Subject: City council meeting tonight.I recall that the agenda for the City Council meeting tonight includes a vote related to the Pacifica endorsement of a plan to permanently repair the Devil's Slide.  Someone who knows more might correct me, but I believe the Council is considering adopting a resolution to rescind the City's previous statement of support for a bypass plan, and make it conditional upon Caltrans completion an independant tunnel study.  Public comments pro and con will be accepted prior to the vote.'     *   . .      '      )     +         `  .     '     ` bruce_AT_hallman.org. +     .         ,    * ' .      '     .     http://www.hallman.org/~bruce/_/_/ ' _/_/ _/  _/_/  Subscribe to the pacifica-l EMail: listserv_AT_netcom.comDate: 07/18/95 07:33:26 AMFrom: Alyssa Jenkins (alyssaj_AT_netcom.com)Subject: Re: Restaurants in Pacifica.i've been to three chinese places in pacifica...........pacific's in the park mall (bleah!!), tam's (good, but a bit expensive for me), and pacifica harry's (my favorite :). i've also been to the thai place..........try the thai ice tea. :)alyssa------"And remember, my sentimental friend - a heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you are loved by others."							--The Wizard of OzDate: 07/18/95 07:33:30 AMFrom: Alyssa Jenkins (alyssaj_AT_netcom.com)Subject: Re: NEW: pacifica-l - The City of Pacifica, Californiathanks, bruce :)i was just hoping it wasn't a list with a particular political viewpoint (ie, no-growth or pro-growth). :)alyssa------"And remember, my sentimental friend - a heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you are loved by others."							--The Wizard of OzDate: 07/18/95 07:33:35 AMFrom: Alyssa Jenkins (alyssaj_AT_netcom.com)Subject: Re: Restaurants in Pacifica.i've been to three chinese places in pacifica...........pacific's in the park mall (bleah!!), tam's (good, but a bit expensive for me), and pacifica harry's (my favorite :). i've also been to the thai place..........try the thai ice tea. :)alyssa------"And remember, my sentimental friend - a heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you are loved by others."							--The Wizard of OzDate: 07/18/95 07:33:39 AMFrom: Alyssa Jenkins (alyssaj_AT_netcom.com)Subject: Re: Tunnel Festcan someone clear something up for me??  what's the big deal with the tunnel??  i mean, anything other than putting a highway through a relatively pristine area sounds good to me.  i've heard that the tunnel would be cheaper and easier to build.  this defies logic for me........can someone clear it up?  i would love to be pro tunnel ('cause i think a new road would spur growth, which i tend to be against.......yes, i did vote against measure a......so sue me........but i digress)......... :)so someone convince me, okay? :)alyssaoh yeah.....and why does cal trans seem to not even want to consider the tunnel?------"And remember, my sentimental friend - a heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you are loved by others."							--The Wizard of OzDate: 07/18/95 07:33:43 AMFrom: Alyssa Jenkins (alyssaj_AT_netcom.com)Subject: Re: Tunnel Funding?one last question..........did anyone else see the letter to the editor in the trib about how "if i were a commuter, i'd much rather see green hills and the ocean than a dark tunnel"??  i had to laugh......obviously the view is the most important thing during one's commute, right???aigh.alyssa------"And remember, my sentimental friend - a heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you are loved by others."							--The Wizard of OzDate: 07/18/95 07:33:46 AMFrom: Michael Slaughter (slaughtr_AT_crl.com)Subject: Re: Restaurants in Pacifica.For my money, everyone's missing the two best stores in town. In no particular order (that is one of a possible two), they are1. The new Japanese (esp. sushi) place on Crespi, in the petite shopping center close to the Community Center.2. Wing Lee's Pedro Point Cafe. (Do I hear a second there, Dave Y.?)Michael Slaughter"The Flying Gourmet" (*In Flight* magazine columnist)Host "Versatile Kitchen" (Pacifica Ch. 8)Food editor, *Redwood City Weekly News*Member, San Francisco Professional Food Society, American Institute of Wine and FoodDate: 07/18/95 07:33:51 AMFrom: Michael Slaughter (slaughtr_AT_crl.com)Subject: Re: Restaurants in Pacifica.For my money, everyone's missing the two best stores in town. In no particular order (that is one of a possible two), they are1. The new Japanese (esp. sushi) place on Crespi, in the petite shopping center close to the Community Center.2. Wing Lee's Pedro Point Cafe. (Do I hear a second there, Dave Y.?)Michael Slaughter"The Flying Gourmet" (*In Flight* magazine columnist)Host "Versatile Kitchen" (Pacifica Ch. 8)Food editor, *Redwood City Weekly News*Member, San Francisco Professional Food Society, American Institute of Wine and FoodDate: 07/18/95 07:33:55 AMFrom: Rian Schmidt (rian_AT_dekinai.esd.sgi.com)Subject: Re: Restaurants in Pacifica. (fwd)> > For my money, everyone's missing the two best stores in town. In no > particular order (that is one of a possible two), they are> > 1. The new Japanese (esp. sushi) place on Crespi, in the petite shopping > center close to the Community Center.> Kani Kosen (Crab Boat) is the name of this place.  It seems that crabis their specialty, and I agree, it's one of the better places toeat in ol' Pasyphilis.  It's a tad expensive, but the service ismuch better than at Mitsu (don't get me wrong, I like Mitsu also, butthe service can be reeeeeally slow.)Also, when you order sake, they bring out a tray of cool sake cups fromwhich you can choose your favorite.  Nice touch.  I think the sushi isso-so, but the cooked food is quite good.Ahhh... finally we discuss something of importance... FOOD!RianDate: 07/18/95 07:34:05 AMFrom: Yvonne Leigh (AntsMom_AT_ix.netcom.com)Subject: Re: City council meeting tonight.Can you enlighten us on how many years the bypass plan has been underconsideration?  If I recall, when I left Pacific in 1985, it had been asubject of heated discussion for almost 10 years THEN.Due to the several closures of Devil's Slide, I was forced to relocate BACK"over the hill" unable to cope with the daily commute hassles.  I wonder howmany others have been forced to do the same in the past 20 years.>I recall that the agenda for the City Council meeting tonight includes a >vote related to the Pacifica endorsement of a plan to permanently repair the >Devil's Slide.  Hasn't a tunnel ever been considered before when discussing this crucialproblem? >Someone who knows more might correct me, but I believe the >Council is considering adopting a resolution to rescind the City's previous >statement of support for a bypass plan, and make it conditional upon >Caltrans completion an independant tunnel study.  This note is probably late in response for any public comments - andconsidering I don't even live remotely close to that area any longer, mycomments probably wouldn't even be heard.  However, speaking as a priorresident of Pacifica and the HMB area, I'm shocked at the fact that NOTHINGhas been done to correct the Devil Slide situation in all these years --except to pass the buck to the next Council or devise ways of spending more$$$$.  Is there a hidden agenda behind all this?I wonder if I'll even live to see "Devil's Bypass" or "Devil's Tunnel"become reality at this rate.******************************************************************************AntsMom, originally from San Francisco who seeked refuge in Half Moon Bay,El Granada, Moss Beach, Montera, then Pacifica - and finally accepted SanPedro as my landing pad.Date: 07/18/95 07:34:17 AMFrom: Scott T Boyd (scott_AT_hax.com)Subject: Re: Tunnel Fest [LONG]At 10:48 PM 7/17/95, Alyssa Jenkins wrote:>can someone clear something up for me??  what's the big deal with the>tunnel??  i mean, anything other than putting a highway through a>relatively pristine area sounds good to me.  i've heard that the tunnel>would be cheaper and easier to build.  this defies logic for>me........can someone clear it up?The short of it is this - tunnel experts are saying that a tunnel thatwould satisfy the requirements of the Local Coastal Plan would cost in theneighborhood of $60 million.  Shank/Balfour & Beatty submitted an informalbid for $65 million, with the possibility of reducing the cost if softerrock is discovered as they dig.Caltrans disagrees (they insist on a much wider tunnel, and estimate costat over $120 million).  Nevertheless, Caltrans is currently placing thecost of a freeway over the mountain at $82 million.$60M < $82MThat's the cheaper part.  Easier comes from this simple observation:  Giventhat tunnels tend to have little or no environmental impact, approvals fromall of the permitting agencies should go a lot faster (especially since thecurrent environmental studies documents are technically stale and will, atthe very least, need to be updated if not entirely redone).In addition, the litigants have made it clear that they would not oppose atunnel, whereas they would almost certainly start additional litigationshould Caltrans choose to not obtain an evaluation of a tunnel'sfeasibility.For lots more details, please check out the web site at:http://www.montara.com/>i would love to be pro tunnel ('cause>i think a new road would spur growth, which i tend to be>against.......yes, i did vote against measure a......so sue me........but>i digress)......... :)>>so someone convince me, okay? :)Well, don't try to read it all in one breath... Actually, the materialbelow isn't aimed at convincing you one way or the other.  You can make upyour own mind, and what better way than to get informed.  For lots moreinformation, covering much more of the entire scope of the issues, checkout the web site.>oh yeah.....and why does cal trans seem to not even want to consider the>tunnel?Caltrans began the planning for a 6-lane coastal freeway to extend to PointConception (that's down near LA) back in 1958.  The design for this wasdone in 1965.  Every county to the south of San Mateo county rejected theplan.  San Mateo didn't.  Nevertheless, the election of Governor Brownushered in a new era of no more major highway projects.  Stymied, theCaltrans engineer who designed the freeway, a Mr. Trombatore (sp?), waited.Sure enough, Brown eventually was replaced by Deukmeijian (did I butcherthe spelling?), and Mr. Trombatore became head of Caltrans.  The new headof Caltrans District 4 (our district) reported that the number one Caltranspriority, as told to him by his boss, Mr. Trombatore, was the freeway (nowaffectionately known as The Bypass).  Caltrans revved up their engines andstarted the project up again.[warning -- serious time passes here, and I don't have all of my notes infront of me to guarantee appropriate time frames and event ordering, butit's the rough spirit of things I'm trying to convey here.]Now this got a number of folks mighty interested.  Many of them gottogether and met with Caltrans to request that an environmental impactstudy be done.  This group included (forgive me, I can't remember them all)the National Resources Defense Council (NRDC), Committee for GreenFoothills, the Sierra Club, and several other groups.  They met.  Caltranssaid no way would they do an impact study.  The groups threatened legalintervention.  Caltrans stuck to their guns.  The threat might have been abluff, but a surprise (single person) donor came up with a chunk of money,enough to get things rolling, and the lawsuit was filed.In the ensuing 10 years or so (pun intended), the court case has been infront of two judges (the first one died), and Caltrans has been required todo quite a bit of environmental impact studying.  They might have gottenaway with doing no study at all, but these watchdog groups got the court tohold them to a higher standard.  I hope to put together a list of thecourt's ruling so people can see just what Caltrans was required to do thatthey didn't want to do.Ironically, had Caltrans gone ahead and done the study when they first setout to build the project, they would have been done long ago with theentire project.  Environmental laws back then were far less restrictive,McNee Ranch wasn't a state park, the Monterey Bay and Fitzgerald Marineareas weren't protected by powerful laws, and the EPA and Army Corps ofEngineers had far less stringent guidelines.  Caltrans has done quite a bitto bring this on themselves.While many of the players at Caltrans have retired or moved on, it's aplace with a long sense of history, and many people work there for entirecareers.  This battle seems to be something of a grudge match for some ofthem, and conversations with a few people there seem to bear this out in my(limited) experience.Other factors have been suggested for why Caltrans wants to build a biggerroad.  I'll mention these for completeness.- Bigger roads means more development.  The causal effects are well known.For example, every time Florida widens the roads on island areas to makeevacuation during hurricanes easier, more people move in and the roads getclogged again.  NPR even did a show on this topic.  Most (roughly 95%?) ofthe undeveloped land between the mountain and Half Moon Bay is owned by oneor two companies (depending on whether or not anyone can nail down whetherthey're the same company or not).  The holdings map is shaded mostly in twopatterns.  The first and largest is the Half Moon Bay Development Holdings(or somesuch), a subsidiary of Westinghouse (which has done much of thedevelopment on the coastside, and is responsible for South Wavecrest, Ibelieve).  A good chunk of land is owned by a consortium that apparentlyintends to build golf courses, one just south of the mountain, and anotheracross from the HMB airport (to go along with the intended three storyshopping center at the airport).  Some suggest that Westinghouse and othershave a large financial stake in ensuring that they get to develop.  As anexample, someone just paid over $1.5 million dollars to buy the farm justto the south of the McNee Ranch State Park.  Why would someone do that whenthey can't build on it?  There's no available sewer capacity.  There's noavailable water capacity.  Puzzling?  Not really.  It looks speculative,like they're betting on the road going through, and a new round ofdevelopment starting up, especially after the (very large) new sewer plantgoes online.- anticipation of the eventual need for wider roads.  Caltrans is a "buildit once and forever" kind of organization.  They suspect that they'lleventually be called upon to widen the road (in spite of the fact that theLocal Coastal Plan, which is the law, requires rural stretches of Hwy 1 tobe 2-lane only).  Every plan they've shown to date, including their tunnelestimates, would allow for at LEAST four lanes, and perhaps as many as six.A Caltrans official told me one day (at the Half Moon Bay High Schoolmeeting right after the road closure) that he doesn't trust us to limit ourgrowth.A snippet of interesting history -- It used to be that, when Caltransdecided to build a road, they'd go before the Highway Commission to presenttheir plan.  It was quite typical, at the time, for the Caltrans spokesmanto be immediately followed by "The Developer", who would present the plansfor the buildout of both houses and businesses, showing where they wouldall fit nicely along the new highway.  At one such meeting, strangely, thecommission chose to deny the request.  A certain Mr. Trombatore, animposing figure, got up from his seat in the back, marched down to thefront, and in his best Kruschev manner, pounded his fist on the table andinstructed the commission to change their decision.  They did.- jobs.  Building freeways is a good way to spend lots of money.  Manyconstruction workers, architects, haulers, and so forth get to work for afew years on a heavy construction project.  One bumper sticker around heresays that the bypass will provide 2000 jobs.- power.  Spending big freeway bucks is a great way for politicians toscore points with two major constituencies.  First, the public always likesthe politician who brings in major non-locally-generated public worksprojects to be spent locally.  Second, and perhaps more importantly,someone has to be the recipient of such locally-spent bucks.  Constructionfirms are a great place to find campaign contributions, especially whenthey're getting a few million at a whack.- Finally (phew!), Caltrans has no relevant recent experience in buildingtunnels.  One line of thought is that they wouldn't have any cronies tosubcontract the work to.  Another is that they simply don't think in termsof tunnels because they haven't been building any since the last bore ofteh Caldecott (back in the 70's?).I encourage you to read some of the documents that are available on theweb.  These include materials from Caltrans and interested third parties.Many more documents, including all of the Caltrans tunnel documentation (asprovided under a California Public Records Act request) are in the processof going online.If anyone has any corrections, clarifications, or other comments on theabove commentary, I welcome the feedback.Best regards,scott boydEditor, Montara Mountain Free Presshttp://www.montara.com/Date: 07/18/95 07:34:35 AMFrom: Scott T Boyd (scott_AT_hax.com)Subject: results of Pacifica Council meeting?Anyone care to report on what happened at the meeting?  Inquiring mindswant to know.While we're at it, would someone also please let us know what happens atthis morning's County Supervisors meeting?  They're scheduled to vote onwhether or not to accept the MidCoast Community Council's recommendationfor Rick Lohman to fill the vacant council seat.Thanks,scotthttp://www.montara.com/Date: 07/18/95 08:49:28 AMFrom: Dave Yuhas (dyuhas_AT_aimnet.com)Subject: Re: Restaurants in Pacifica.>For my money, everyone's missing the two best stores in town. In no >particular order (that is one of a possible two), they are>>1. The new Japanese (esp. sushi) place on Crespi, in the petite shopping >center close to the Community Center.>>2. Wing Lee's Pedro Point Cafe. (Do I hear a second there, Dave Y.?)A second helping for me.  I was not aware of the Japanese place; have youtried the one on Palmetto, next door to Domino's Pizza?  If these two mergedwe could get sushi pizza delivered in 30 minutes or less.-------------------------------------------------------------Dave Yuhas          |      Christine Krenzel, CPAdave_AT_crl.com        |      415-912-5840 / 415-912-5848 (fax)-------------------------------------------------------------Date: 07/18/95 12:51:13 PMFrom: Bruce Hallman (deadfish)Subject: Re: Restaurants in Pacifica.Michael Slaughter wrote>>For my money, everyone's missing ...>1. The new Japanese (esp. sushi) place on Crespi, in the petite shopping >center close to the Community Center.I strongly agree, though you wouldn't know to look in a "mini industrial park" for a Japanese restaurant, this place is extremely civil, which is what has always impressed me about the best Japanese restaurants.  The food is very carefully prepared.  '     *   . .      '      )     +         `  .     '     ` bruce_AT_hallman.org. +     .         ,    * ' .      '     .     http://www.hallman.org/~bruce/_/_/ ' _/_/ _/  _/_/  Subscribe to the pacifica-l EMail: listserv_AT_netcom.comDate: 07/18/95 12:51:19 PMFrom: Bruce Hallman (deadfish)Subject: if i were a commuteralyssa wrote>>one last question..........did anyone else see the letter to the editor >in the trib about how "if i were a commuter, i'd much rather see green >hills and the ocean than a dark tunnel"??  i had to laugh......obviously >the view is the most important thing during one's commute, right???This brings up another little made point, the driving time for commuters would be about two minutes per one way trip shorter through a tunnel than over the inland bypass.  I know commuters _say_ they prefer views, but I bet money that if both the bypass and the tunnel were built, that the tunnel would be used by the daily commuters, simply because it is shorter.'     *   . .      '      )     +         `  .     '     ` bruce_AT_hallman.org. +     .         ,    * ' .      '     .     http://www.hallman.org/~bruce/_/_/ ' _/_/ _/  _/_/  Subscribe to the pacifica-l EMail: listserv_AT_netcom.comDate: 07/18/95 12:51:24 PMFrom: Bruce Hallman (deadfish)Subject: the tunnel would be cheaper...this defies logicalyssa wrote>  i've heard that the tunnel >would be cheaper and easier to build.  this defies logic for >me........can someone clear it up?  Compare in your mind: 1) building about four miles of freeway, including three bridges 2) with building roughly one mile of tunnel with one bridge.  Costs go up roughly in correlation to the number of truck loads of material moved.  [Another way to think of this is, it takes one truck driver & truck at $50/hr to move 10 cubic yards of dirt, and a good rule of thumb is $5/cubic yard].  The bypass routing is longer and moves many more cubic yards of dirt than a tunnel.  True, the dirt moved to build a tunnel is more difficult, but not THAT much more difficult, and there is much less to move.Similar for the bridges.  A typical bridge costs $20 million dollars.  The bypass route needs three, the tunnel needs only one.  Also, note that the tunnel routing would reuse much of the existing Highway 1 south of Devil's Slide, where the bypass route calls for new highway to be built all the way to Montara. (with the old highway being abandoned)>i would love to be pro tunnel ('cause >i think a new road would spur growth, which i tend to be >against.......This is interesting, because the current Costal Plan (which is the current "law") allows Caltrans to build only a two lane road.  In reality, Caltrans is trying to build a four lane road, and pave only two lanes, calling it a two lane road to technically comply with the Coastal Plan.  Later, you can imagine what will happen.  In my opinion, this is a fraud.'     *   . .      '      )     +         `  .     '     ` bruce_AT_hallman.org. +     .         ,    * ' .      '     .     http://www.hallman.org/~bruce/_/_/ ' _/_/ _/  _/_/  Subscribe to the pacifica-l EMail: listserv_AT_netcom.comDate: 07/18/95 12:51:31 PMFrom: Bruce Hallman (deadfish)Subject: how many years has the bypass plan been under consideration?AntsMom wrote:>>Can you enlighten us on how many years the bypass plan has been under>consideration?  If I recall, when I left Pacific in 1985, it had been a>subject of heated discussion for almost 10 years THEN.True.>Due to the several closures of Devil's Slide, I was forced to relocate BAC>"over the hill" unable to cope with the daily commute hassles.  I wonder ho>many others have been forced to do the same in the past 20 years.["several closures"???]Lots of people have chosen to relocate, I'm sure.  Though some would argue that moving closer to one's job is only fair.  Long commutes on wide high speed roads through state parks are not necessarily an inalienable right. >Hasn't a tunnel ever been considered before when discussing this crucial>problem? Mike Vasey can say more about this, but a tunnel option appears to have been suppressed over the years by Caltrans.  The real issue, in my opinion, is that the tunnel is not an economical option for a four lane road.  Caltrans wants a four lane road, even though the Coastal Plan would not allow it.For years the "environmentalists" have focused on repairing the existing road near it's current alignment, the so called "MDA".  Lately, the "environmentalists" have softened some, and say they will support a two lane tunnel compromise.  [and over-simplification]>>...I'm shocked at the fact that NOTHING>has been done to correct the Devil Slide situation in all these years -->except to pass the buck to the next Council or devise ways of spending mor>$$$$.  Is there a hidden agenda behind all this?[one person's biased opinion]  Yes.  A lot of "no-growth" types would really prefer to keep the total number of traffic lanes at two.  The "pro-growth" types, including Caltrans, want to build a freeway to Half Moon Bay.  Fights like this take time. '     *   . .      '      )     +         `  .     '     ` bruce_AT_hallman.org. +     .         ,    * ' .      '     .     http://www.hallman.org/~bruce/_/_/ ' _/_/ _/  _/_/  Subscribe to the pacifica-l EMail: listserv_AT_netcom.comDate: 07/18/95 12:51:58 PMFrom: Cynthia (lthrdyke_AT_persephone.org)Subject: Re: results of Pacifica Council meeting?At 03:48 AM 7/18/95 -0700, Scott T Boyd wrote:>Anyone care to report on what happened at the meeting?  Inquiring minds>want to know.>>While we're at it, would someone also please let us know what happens at>this morning's County Supervisors meeting?  They're scheduled to vote on>whether or not to accept the MidCoast Community Council's recommendation>for Rick Lohman to fill the vacant council seat.I too would be interested in this information ... could it be postedto the list?......... Cynthia (Moss Beach)--%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%"When a woman seriously asks herself what it  |  means to be a woman she is pulling at a      |  thread that can unravel an entire culture."  | http://www.persephone.org					      |       *******	  Kim Chernin - "Reinventing Eve"     |  lthrdyke on IRC%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%Date: 07/18/95 12:52:07 PMFrom: Scott T Boyd (scott_AT_hax.com)Subject: Re: how many years has the bypass plan been under consideration?At 8:57 AM 7/18/95, Bruce Hallman wrote:>AntsMom wrote:>>>Can you enlighten us on how many years the bypass plan has been under>>consideration?  If I recall, when I left Pacific in 1985, it had been a>>subject of heated discussion for almost 10 years THEN.>>True.Indeed, the bypass plans were first completed in 1965 (sans EIS), and theproject plan was begun in 1958.  It's been in litigation (because of themissing EIS) for the past ten years....>>Hasn't a tunnel ever been considered before when discussing this crucial>>problem?In point of fact, the Sierra Club introduced a tunnel into the discussionas early as (I believe) 1973.>>>...I'm shocked at the fact that NOTHING>>has been done to correct the Devil Slide situation in all these years -->>except to pass the buck to the next Council or devise ways of spending mor>>$$$$.  Is there a hidden agenda behind all this?>>[one person's biased opinion]  Yes.  A lot of "no-growth" types would really>prefer to keep the total number of traffic lanes at two.  The "pro-growth">types, including Caltrans, want to build a freeway to Half Moon Bay.Maybe it's just me, but when I think of a "lot" of no-growth types, I thinkof the majority of the voters of San Mateo County who put a two-lane ruralcoastal road law into effect.Regards,scottps:  Interesting history note:  Everyone knows that the Pacifica CityCouncil voted many years ago to approve the Bypass, right?  Does everyoneknow specifically what they voted on?They were presented with different choices of the road alignment for thebypass, and they chose between the one that ran to the Chart House, and theone that ran to the airport.THAT's what they approved.They were not presented with Permanent Repair vs. Tunnel vs. BypassFreeway.  It's important to know exactly what they "endorsed" and what theydidn't.http://www.montara.com/Date: 07/19/95 06:57:56 AMFrom: Bruce Hallman (deadfish)Subject: Re: results of Pacifica Council meeting?>>Anyone care to report on what happened at the meeting?  Inquiring minds>>want to know.The Pacifica City Council is set to discuss and vote on rescinding their support of a bypass route until after a study of a possible tunnel alignment is completed.  This meeting is scheduled for the evening of Monday the 24th of July.  [I had previously said the 17th in error, sorry.]'     *   . .      '      )     +         `  .     '     ` bruce_AT_hallman.org. +     .         ,    * ' .      '     .     http://www.hallman.org/~bruce/_/_/ ' _/_/ _/  _/_/  Subscribe to the pacifica-l EMail: listserv_AT_netcom.comDate: 07/19/95 06:58:03 AMFrom: LSTEERE.US.ORACLE.COM (LSTEERE_AT_us.oracle.com)Subject: Re: if i were a commuter--Boundary-13390521-0-0My reaction to that letter was it sure is nervy of a commuter driving through a community to think he or she has more rights than the people who live there! WE want our fresh air and views, and that's one of the reasons we DON'T want the bypass! To think that we residents might give over an unspoiled mountain and that magical ranch valley that everyone had a chance to enjoy Sunday just because some commuters want to have a "view" is so absurd that letter isn't worth responding to in print.Date: 07/19/95 06:58:15 AMFrom: ALEXIS AMELIA GREENBERG (alexisg_AT_mercury.sfsu.edu)Subject: Centrix ISDN in pacifica !! Hi all! I'm Gary Barrueto, not alexis like my address says.I hope this gets sent out to everyone one the listWell I'm here to say that there is no local Centrex ISDN to Pacifica!For thos who don't know what ISDN is, Its a special line that lets you transfer files between computers at 112K or 128K Its 5 times faster then a 28.8K v.34 modem!!ISDN is used alot now for getting internet connections to your computer with PPP or SLIP connections. I've looked around and there's no internet providers local to Pacifica that offers Centrex ISDN.I've been emailing local providers asking if they would be interested in setting up a local ISDN # so Pacifica can call. I had 1 response who were interested, catch22.com. I'm here asking if there is anyone somewhat-seriously interested in getting an ISDn connection in Pacifica or surrounding area??? Catch22.com would liek to talk to prospective customers to see if they would expand service to our area. If you are could you please email me or email to root_AT_catch22.com telling them that you are intested in Centrex ISDN in Pacifica.I really trully beleive getting ISDN in Pacifica would help those businesses in Paciifca who would like their presence known on internet.Thanks! -GaryDate: 07/19/95 06:58:38 AMFrom: Alyssa Jenkins (alyssaj_AT_netcom.com)Subject: Re: NEW: pacifica-l - The City of Pacifica, California> in favor of the tunnel 90:10, opposed to measure A 60:40, etc...  It seems > to roughly reflect the "non-redneck" contingent in Pacifica.  Just what you > would imagine from Pacificans who are "on-line".*grin*  kewl..........i fit right in. :)alyssaDate: 07/19/95 06:58:45 AMFrom: Dave Yuhas (dyuhas_AT_aimnet.com)Subject: Re: posting to pacifica-l? how?>hiyas dave.. how do you post something to pacifica-l mailing list?? I >tried but only the title of teh msg showed up and not the body .. thanks>>>To send a message to the list, address it to: pacifica-l_AT_netcom.com.When replying to a message from the list, the TO: address is automaticallyset to the address of the sender, not the list.  This means that if you wantyour reply to go to the list, not just the sender, you have to manuallychange the TO: address to pacifica-l_AT_netcom.com.You can get a list of commands that the listserver will respond to bysending a message to listserv_AT_netcom.com.  Leave the subject line blank.Put the word "help" (no quotes) in the body of the message.  If your mailerautomatically adds a signature, you can put the word "end" on a separate line.The maintainer of the list is Bruce Hallman (deadfish_AT_netcom.com).  If whatI wrote above doesn't work, send Bruce a message.-------------------------------------------------------------Dave Yuhas          |      Christine Krenzel, CPAdave_AT_crl.com        |      415-912-5840 / 415-912-5848 (fax)-------------------------------------------------------------Date: 07/19/95 06:58:49 AMFrom: ALEXIS AMELIA GREENBERG (alexisg_AT_mercury.sfsu.edu)Subject: Centrex ISDN in Pacifica! Hi all! I'm Gary Barrueto, not alexis like my address says.Well I'm here to say that there is no local Centrex ISDN to Pacifica!For thos who don't know what ISDN is, Its a special line that lets you transfer files between computers at 112K or 128K Its 5 times faster then a 28.8K v.34 modem!!ISDN is used alot now for getting internet connections to your computer with PPP or SLIP connections. I've looked around and there's no internet providers local to Pacifica that offers Centrex ISDN.I've been emailing local providers asking if they would be interested in setting up a local ISDN # so Pacifica can call. I had 1 response who were interested, catch22.com. I'm here asking if there is anyone somewhat-seriously interested in getting an ISDn connection in Pacifica or surrounding area??? Catch22.com would liek to talk to prospective customers to see if they would expand service to our area. If you are could you please email me or email to root_AT_catch22.com telling them that you are intested in Centrex ISDN in Pacifica.I really trully beleive getting ISDN in Pacifica would help those businesses in Paciifca who would like their presence known on internet.Thanks! -GaryendDate: 07/19/95 06:58:53 AMFrom: Alyssa Jenkins (alyssaj_AT_netcom.com)Subject: Re: the tunnel would be cheaper...this defies logicokay.........i'm convinced.  of course, i was 3/4th's convinced before........ :)(but added information never hurt anyone!!)thanks!alyssa------"And remember, my sentimental friend - a heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you are loved by others."							--The Wizard of OzDate: 07/19/95 06:58:56 AMFrom: Alyssa Jenkins (alyssaj_AT_netcom.com)Subject: Re: if i were a commuterbesides that, it's not like the tunnel comprises most of the drive......there'll still be plenty of view left. :)(so shouldn't someone write a letter to the editor pointing out what a stupid point it is to even consider the views for the commute?)a------"And remember, my sentimental friend - a heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you are loved by others."							--The Wizard of OzDate: 07/19/95 06:59:00 AMFrom: Alyssa Jenkins (alyssaj_AT_netcom.com)Subject: Re: Restaurants in Pacifica.lol.........a sushi pizza??  so what's that.........a pizza with the anchovies uncooked????:)alyssa------"And remember, my sentimental friend - a heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you are loved by others."							--The Wizard of OzDate: 07/19/95 06:59:04 AMFrom: Alyssa Jenkins (alyssaj_AT_netcom.com)Subject: Re: the tunnel would be cheaper...this defies logicokay.........i'm convinced.  of course, i was 3/4th's convinced before........ :)(but added information never hurt anyone!!)thanks!alyssa------"And remember, my sentimental friend - a heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you are loved by others."							--The Wizard of OzDate: 07/19/95 06:59:09 AMFrom: Alyssa Jenkins (alyssaj_AT_netcom.com)Subject: Re: Centrex ISDN in Pacifica! gary.......can you tell us more about what it would cost to call into the isdn line??  i'm interested, but not if it's going to cost me a lot of money.  with netcom, i don't pay for the time it takes me to download stuff, so the isdn would be more of a convenience than anything else.thanks!alyssa------"And remember, my sentimental friend - a heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you are loved by others."							--The Wizard of OzDate: 07/19/95 06:59:15 AMFrom: Scott T Boyd (scott_AT_hax.com)Subject: Re: Centrex ISDN in Pacifica! At 10:23 PM 7/18/95, Alyssa Jenkins wrote:>gary.......can you tell us more about what it would cost to call into the >isdn line??  i'm interested, but not if it's going to cost me a lot of >money.  with netcom, i don't pay for the time it takes me to download >stuff, so the isdn would be more of a convenience than anything else.Here's what I found at their web site:Dedicated ISDN/IP Pricing22 Solutions offers two levels of 24-hour dedicated ISDN service: Single machine (one IPaddress) and Local Area Network (3 to 5 IP addresses). Accounts can be single channel (56-64kb) or double-channel (112-128 kb). Single accounts vs LAN accountsSingle ISDN/IP accounts connect one machine to the internet; Local Area Network (LAN)services can connect an entire organization. With LAN service, customers can connect all orpart of their ethernet LANs to their own router, providing Internet access for an entireorganization. In this manner, many machines at your site can have instant access to the ISDNInternet connection. Both single machine and LAN services include a dedicated ISDN line,and separate IP addresses routed to your network. Single IP and LAN services are bothexcellent for creating FTP sites, or Web servers, providing high-bandwidth internetaccessibility. Both are available in single channel (56kb), or double channel (112kb) varieties. Individual Dedicated Services (single IP address)Speed/equipment     Setup (one time)     Monthly Charge  112k ISDN                $500                $180**   56k ISDN                $350                $100*Local Area Network (LAN) Services (multiple IP addresses)Speed/equipment     Setup (one time)     Monthly Charge  112k ISDN               $1000                $250**   56k ISDN               $700                 $180**Six month commitment is required for this service. **Twelve month commitment isrequired for this service. The above charges are for Internet access only, and do not include accumulated Pac Bellcharges for ISDN service, or necessary ISDN hardware. 22 Solutions can give you an estimateon these additional costs, and which level of service is right for you. -----Coming soon....ISDN dialup access22 Solutions will feature Integrated Services Digital Network (ISDN) dial-up access for singlehosts and small LAN's. ISDN phone connections are much faster than normal serial phonelines, running from 56kbps to 128Kbps over a standard phone line. An ISDN/IP dial-upaccount can provide you or your business with high speed on-demand access to Mosaic pages,Gopher searches, E -Mail and FTP file transfers at the monthly cost of regular serial lineservice. ---dialup seems to cost $0.50/hour up to 70 hours, where further access isn't charged for (i.e. $35/month maximum).http://www.montara.com/Date: 07/19/95 06:59:31 AMFrom: Rick776_AT_aol.com (Rick776_AT_aol.com)Subject: Traffic helpDoes anyone have any ideas what we could do to slow down the traffic  onLinda Mar Blvd?  We have had WAY too many accidents. People seem to think ofour street as a drag strip. There is already a 30 mph speed limit. Peoplestill come flying off the highway and want to go as fast as they can. Severalparked cars have been run into, yards damaged, walls damaged etc. There hasbeen at least 6 accidents in the 700 block in the last year. I don't think weshould wait for someone to be killed to do something about this. Lower speedlimit? Speed bumps?  More police enforcement?We live on this street. And there are a lot of children that live here.Something needs to be done.  I wonder if anyone from the town council readsthis mailing list.  Hopefully we can do something about this before someonedies in my front yard.Date: 07/19/95 08:49:29 AMFrom: Bruce Hallman (deadfish)Subject: Re: Traffic helpRick776_AT_aol.com wrote:>>Does anyone have any ideas what we could do to slow down the traffic  on>Linda Mar Blvd?  [snip] Lower speed limit? Speed bumps?  I have had a discussion with the City Engineer Tim Molinari about this, and he shows symptoms of being asked this question by so many people on nearly every street of the City that he goes in to robot mode when he responds.  His answer to the speed limit question is that people will disregard lower speed limits and stop signs if they are already disregarding the 30 mph limit.   Speed bumps bring on liabilty to the City because they ruin oil pans and people sue.  The City has a policy against speed bumps, they need City Council approval.  His standard answer is to make reports of speeders to the Police Dept.I'm not an old timer, the the guy down the street (who is) was telling me of a controversy about the speed limit on Linda Mar Blvd. (in the '60's?) where there was a mini revolt at the speed trap which was too much of a hassle that people complained and got the ticketing spree stopped.  I might be screwing up the details of his story.>More police enforcement?Actually, I believe that it would help to make compaints to the Police Dept..>We live on this street. And there are a lot of children that live here.Linda Mar Blvd. is one of the worst (including perhaps Fasler Blvd, Tera Nova, and Manor Drive) but to one extent or another the problem exists on most city streets.  There is something about the glass in the automobile windows which make normally civic minded people forget that driving fast hurts our city.>Something needs to be done.  Peer pressure is the only thing I can think of which might work.  Mentioning it at the open mike portion of the City Council meetings might make you feel better, but I'm not sure it would help.>I wonder if anyone from the town council read this mailing list.  No.  Maxine Gonsalves says that she wants to, and needs some encouragement.  All the council members and the planning commission etc. should be encouraged to join.  [Call to action, lets lobby 'em!]'     *   . .      '      )     +         `  .     '     ` bruce_AT_hallman.org. +     .         ,    * ' .      '     .     http://www.hallman.org/~bruce/_/_/ ' _/_/ _/  _/_/  Subscribe to the pacifica-l EMail: listserv_AT_netcom.comDate: 07/19/95 08:49:35 AMFrom: Bruce Hallman (deadfish)Subject: The finest Taco Bell, period!Others on the pacifica-l mailing list may want to jump into the ongoing discussion in the newsgroup alt.food.taco-bell and vote for our own local eighth wonder of the world, The Linda Mar Beach Taco Bell!****excerpt from alt.food.taco-bell follows*******************Article: alt.food.taco-bell.4483 Message-ID:  From: rhiney_AT_netcom.com (Rhiney) Subject: The finest taco bell, period   this would have to be the one in Pacifica, California... not the one   downtown, but the one on the beach.  i mean literally, ON THE BEACH.    there is a deck with a window for people to order from that are all   wet... the food is consistently excellent, and the service is great.  it   even has the taco bell bill of rights.'     *   . .      '      )     +         `  .     '     ` bruce_AT_hallman.org. +     .         ,    * ' .      '     .     http://www.hallman.org/~bruce/_/_/ ' _/_/ _/  _/_/  Subscribe to the pacifica-l EMail: listserv_AT_netcom.comDate: 07/19/95 08:49:40 AMFrom: Dave Yuhas (dyuhas_AT_aimnet.com)Via: Netcom SFSubject: Re: Traffic help>No.  Maxine Gonsalves says that she wants to, and needs some encouragement. This is kinda vague.  Does she have the hardware?  Does she have an emailaddress?  What's her specific problem?Here's a suggestion: announce that a seminar will be held for all citygovernment types who want to learn how to use the list, blah, blah blah.I'm sure you could get enough volunteers to put on the thing.  I'd even goto their office, home to get them online.-------------------------------------------------------------Dave Yuhas          |      Christine Krenzel, CPAdave_AT_crl.com        |      415-912-5840 / 415-912-5848 (fax)-------------------------------------------------------------Date: 07/19/95 10:43:29 AMFrom: Bruce Hallman (deadfish)Subject: Getting Maxine Gonsalves (& Pacifica)  online.Dave Yuhas wrote:>>>>No.  Maxine Gonsalves says that she wants to, and needs some encouragement>>This is kinda vague.  Does she have the hardware?  Does she have an email>address?  What's her specific problem?She has a PC, runs Windows.  The last time I talked to her was at the Crespi Drive tunnel meeting about six weeks ago.  She was trying to buy a modem, and wanted to buy it in Pacifica.  She had asked someone that she knew to help her.  I have given her one of the AOL 10 free hour coupons.  I have offered to help her a few different times, and have talked to her perhaps a total of 5 minutes about getting online.  She likes the idea, and in general is just getting over the PC learning curve.>Here's a suggestion: announce that a seminar will be held for all city>government types who want to learn how to use the list, blah, blah blah.>I'm sure you could get enough volunteers to put on the thing.  I'd even go>to their office, home to get them online.Based on looking Barbara Carr in the eye about three months ago, when I proposed at a City Council meeting that the City get online, Mayor Carr (and the other council members) have the same computer-phobia that my mother had .  Mayor Carr's response was... "I am SOOO grateful to you for your civic efforts to help Pacifica, (then turning to Charlie English) Charlie, give him a call."  [Which he never did.]  I think that the City Council has a vague idea that Pacifica can benifit from getting online in the future, but they don't have a vision for it, they don't even know how to find the on-switch of a computer.  They are supportive, but don't know how to help.Realistically, we need to get the toe in the door and "holding a seminar" may work, but it may be too big of a first step.  Actually, running a seminar in the PB&R may be a good idea and I'm sure it would be very well received.A good first goal I think is to get the City Council & Planning Commission agendas & minutes regularly posted to the list.  Someone in the city must type these on a word processor.  THAT Computer needs to be identified, and it needs to get a modem installed in it, and it needs an EMail address.  The clerk that operates that computer needs our help.  Who is he or she?   Dave if you want a goal, try to get a modem installed in that computer.  I'll donate $20 to the cause.A guy named Ed   who subscribes to pacifica-l list rewrote the ABAG Pacifica Web page in May said he had some sort of connection in the city government.  Ed are you there?Also, Jeffrey Lawrence has been working on the Pacifica Chamber of Commerce yet to be released Web page project, and subscribes to this list may be a resource getting Pacifica online.  Jeffrey are you there?'     *   . .      '      )     +         `  .     '     ` bruce_AT_hallman.org. +     .         ,    * ' .      '     .     http://www.hallman.org/~bruce/_/_/ ' _/_/ _/  _/_/  Subscribe to the pacifica-l EMail: listserv_AT_netcom.comDate: 07/21/95 09:43:59 AMFrom: Rian Schmidt (rian_AT_dekinai.esd.sgi.com)Subject: Re: Traffic help> Linda Mar Blvd. is one of the worst (including perhaps Fasler Blvd...This one always cracks me up.  Whenever I am driving up Fasler (past thelovely housing development, PacificAire-by-the-sea Meadow Groves Used-To-Be-An-Open-Space, but this is another story) there is *always* a race tobe first up the hill.  I've tried to drive really, really fast to see ifthat would appease the intense person wanting to be in front of me, but no...Now, I theorize that this can't always be the same person, and therefore, itmust be a symptom of the hill?  Or, could it be... the people?  I dunno.Anyway, several years ago officer what's-her-name sat up there and dished outtickets by the handful, but I don't recall it having any effect.I do remember the outcry about it, though, and that strikes me as ironic.There seem to be as many people, or more, that think speeding tickets arean outrage as there are people that think everyone should slow down.  Can'thave it both ways.Rian-- Rian SchmidtDigital Media Solutions DivisionSilicon GraphicsMountain View, CA USArian_AT_dekinai.esd.sgi.comhttp://www-leland.stanford.edu/~decemberToday, thanks to men like Edison and Franklin, and frogs likeGalvani's, we receive almost unlimited benefits from electricity.  Forexample, in the past decade scientists have developed the laser, anelectronic appliance so powerful that it can vaporize a bulldozer 2000yards away, yet so precise that doctors can use it to perform delicateoperations to the human eyeball, provided they remember to change thepower setting from "Bulldozer" to "Eyeball."Date: 07/21/95 09:44:11 AMFrom: LSTEERE.US.ORACLE.COM (LSTEERE_AT_us.oracle.com)Subject: Re: Traffic helpI live on Crespi, and trying to get out onto Fassler in the morning during school days is a joke. People pull the California Roll at the stop sign on Terra Nova and Fassler and between them and the ones racing up Fassler, you can sit on Crespi for quite a while. But I think they may be considering a stop light up there soon. It's hard to drive DOWN Fassler very slowly because of the steepness of the hill (so guess what would happen if a bypass with a 6.5 percent grade went in over the mountain!), but I sure don't have any trouble driving up it slowly in my 10-year-old, 200,000-miles-plus Toyota though!-> Linda Mar Blvd. is one of the worst (including perhaps Fasler Blvd...This one always cracks me up.  Whenever I am driving up Fasler (past thelovely housing development, PacificAire-by-the-sea Meadow Groves Used-To-Be-An-Open-Space, but this is another story) there is *always* a race tobe first up the hill.  I've tried to drive really, really fast to see ifthat would appease the intense person wanting to be in front of me, but no...Now, I theorize that this can't always be the same person, and therefore, itmust be a symptom of the hill?  Or, could it be... the people?  I dunno.Anyway, several years ago officer what's-her-name sat up there and dished outtickets by the handful, but I don't recall it having any effect.I do remember the outcry about it, though, and that strikes me as ironic.There seem to be as many people, or more, that think speeding tickets arean outrage as there are people that think everyone should slow down.  Can'thave it both ways.Rian-- Rian SchmidtDigital Media Solutions DivisionSilicon GraphicsMountain View, CA USArian_AT_dekinai.esd.sgi.comhttp://www-leland.stanford.edu/~decemberToday, thanks to men like Edison and Franklin, and frogs likeGalvani's, we receive almost unlimited benefits from electricity.  Forexample, in the past decade scientists have developed the laser, anelectronic appliance so powerful that it can vaporize a bulldozer 2000yards away, yet so precise that doctors can use it to perform delicateoperations to the human eyeball, provided they remember to change thepower setting from "Bulldozer" to "Eyeball."--Boundary-13412537-0-0--Date: 07/21/95 09:45:58 AMFrom: Dave Yuhas (dyuhas_AT_aimnet.com)Subject: Re: Getting Maxine Gonsalves (& Pacifica)  online.>Based on looking Barbara Carr in the eye about three months ago, when I >proposed at a City Council meeting that the City get online, Mayor Carr (and >the other council members) have the same computer-phobia that my mother had >.  >>Mayor Carr's response was... "I am SOOO grateful to you for your civic >efforts to help Pacifica, (then turning to Charlie English) Charlie, give >him a call."  [Which he never did.]  The hell with Carr.  Do it without genuflecting first.  Send a letter toeach council person and the department heads.  Say we're going to do it andif you'd like to be there that would be swell.>>A good first goal I think is to get the City Council & Planning Commission >agendas & minutes regularly posted to the list.  Someone in the city must >type these on a word processor.  THAT Computer needs to be identified, and >it needs to get a modem installed in it, and it needs an EMail address.  The >clerk that operates that computer needs our help.  Who is he or she?   Dave >if you want a goal, try to get a modem installed in that computer.  I'll >donate $20 to the cause.And the modem, when installed, connects to...?  I suppose a $19/mo internetaccount couldn't be economically justified?[back from calling the city manager]Mr. Vandehane (sp?) is working, according to his secrtary, on getting citycouncil meeting minutes, etc posted to the list.  I said that we,subscribers to the list, and I, personally, would be more than happy toassist Mr. V to expedite the matter.  Let's see if he calls me back.>Also, Jeffrey Lawrence has been working on the Pacifica Chamber of Commerce >yet to be released Web page project, and subscribes to this list may be a >resource getting Pacifica online.  Jeffrey are you there?I faxed the PCC several months ago offering to show them what available onthe WWW, particularly free space on the city.net server.  Never heard a word.I'll follow up my call to Mr V in a few days if he doesn't get back to mefirst.  -------------------------------------------------------------Dave Yuhas          |      Christine Krenzel, CPAdave_AT_crl.com        |      415-912-5840 / 415-912-5848 (fax)-------------------------------------------------------------Date: 07/21/95 09:46:02 AMFrom: Alyssa Jenkins (alyssaj_AT_netcom.com)Subject: Re: Traffic helpre: speed limits.........i've seen people going down terra nova (where i live, and where i lost a cat 'cause some *&^% ran it over) at about 50mph...  one time, when there was an injured deer lying in the middle of the road, i thought i was going to die, too, because i was standing out there with this deer to keep it from being hit again....i was shocked at how fast people go.yesterday, someone passed the car ahead of me by going into the oncoming traffic's lane on fassler blvd........the long and the short of it is that people are stupid/reckless/crazy sometimes when they're behind the wheel, and all the speed bumps/police in the world aren't going to make our roads 100% free from the crazies.alyssa----------------"The gains of education are never really lost.  Books may be burned and cities sacked, but truth, like the yearning for freedom, lives on in the hearts of all human beings."  							--FDRDate: 07/21/95 09:46:06 AMFrom: Alyssa Jenkins (alyssaj_AT_netcom.com)Subject: Re: Traffic helpre: speed limits.........i've seen people going down terra nova (where i live, and where i lost a cat 'cause some *&^% ran it over) at about 50mph...  one time, when there was an injured deer lying in the middle of the road, i thought i was going to die, too, because i was standing out there with this deer to keep it from being hit again....i was shocked at how fast people go.yesterday, someone passed the car ahead of me by going into the oncoming traffic's lane on fassler blvd........the long and the short of it is that people are stupid/reckless/crazy sometimes when they're behind the wheel, and all the speed bumps/police in the world aren't going to make our roads 100% free from the crazies.alyssa----------------"The gains of education are never really lost.  Books may be burned and cities sacked, but truth, like the yearning for freedom, lives on in the hearts of all human beings."  							--FDRDate: 07/21/95 09:46:10 AMFrom: LSTEERE.US.ORACLE.COM (LSTEERE_AT_us.oracle.com)Subject: Re: Traffic help--Boundary-13423710-0-0Let's do horses again instead!Date: 07/21/95 09:46:25 AMFrom: Robert Olague (rgolague_AT_slip.net)Subject: Re: Traffic help>Rick776_AT_aol.com wrote:>>>>Does anyone have any ideas what we could do to slow down the traffic  on>>Linda Mar Blvd?  [snip] Lower speed limit? Speed bumps?  I guess you heard about the ass on the motorcycle doing about 80 mph intoyour neighbors camper parked in the driveway but did you know about the guywho rammed into that white car three doors from the corner on monday night?>I have had a discussion with the City Engineer Tim Molinari about this, and >he shows symptoms of being asked this question by so many people on nearly >every street of the City that he goes in to robot mode when he responds.  >His answer to the speed limit question is that people will disregard lower >speed limits and stop signs if they are already disregarding the 30 mph >limit.   Is this reason to do nothing? Is capitol punishment a deterrent to murder?Who cares as long as the danger is off our streets! Rick776 is a neighbor of mine and we have been subject to more accidentsthan anyone should have to be exposed to. I have personally had three carstotaled in front of my house. Statistics will show that areas with a largenumber of accidents will eventually have a fatality. Knowing a problemexists is the first step in remedying it. Speed bumps may ruin oil pans butimagine the liability position the city will be in when faced with afatality that never should have happened, because someones oil pan was atrisk. What priorities are we using when we allow speeding on residentialstreets over protecting the residents that live there.>Speed bumps bring on liabilty to the City because they ruin oil >pans and people sue.  The City has a policy against speed bumps, they need >City Council approval.  His standard answer is to make reports of speeders >to the Police Dept.I dont think speed bumps would be the answer to our problem but lanereconfiguration would greatly help. >I'm not an old timer, the the guy down the street (who is) was telling me of >a controversy about the speed limit on Linda Mar Blvd. (in the '60's?) where >there was a mini revolt at the speed trap which was too much of a hassle >that people complained and got the ticketing spree stopped.  I might be >screwing up the details of his story.People seem to think that Linda Mar Blvd West of Adobe is their own littlefreeway onramp. The kids use the lights at Peralta and DeSolo as drag racestaging lights. When we try to slow down to pull into our driveways we getflipped off and honked at as though we have no right to go to our own home.Talkin to another L.M neighbor he told me of a time when he went to talk tothe guy honking at him and the guy reached in his glove box and slippedsomethig into his pocket. This is very suggestive of a weapon. Getting shotover pulling into your own driveway? The whole idea of this being anythingbut a residential street must be stopped.>>We live on this street. And there are a lot of children that live here.>>Something needs to be done.  I couldn't agree more....But what? ---/********Bob Olague********\/****Rgolague_AT_Slip.Net****\Date: 07/21/95 09:46:39 AMFrom: LSTEERE.US.ORACLE.COM (LSTEERE_AT_us.oracle.com)Via: Netcom SFSubject: Re: Traffic helpWell, one way to slow the traffic AND save the city money is let potholes grow in the streets...Stop with the nice pavement stuff...Date: 07/21/95 09:46:55 AMFrom: ALEXIS AMELIA GREENBERG (alexisg_AT_mercury.sfsu.edu)Subject: Centrex ISDN Info for Pacifica www pageIf you would liek to see some info on Centrex ISDN , pricing from pacbell and the internet provider.. and stuff... try looking at my web page at:	http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~alexisgIt's the first link for isdn..- GaryDate: 07/24/95 06:43:59 AMFrom: Robert Olague (rgolague_AT_slip.net)Subject: everything ok?Seems like all the traffic dropped off suddenly. Did everyone rush to meet Olga?---/********Bob Olague********\/****Rgolague_AT_Slip.Net****\Date: 07/24/95 06:44:02 AMFrom: Scott T Boyd (scott_AT_hax.com)Subject: Correction re: Ocean View farmsThe other day I sent out a message indicating that Ocean View farms (justto the south of McNee Ranch State Park) had sold 8 acres for $1.6M.I evidently had my wires crossed. $1.6M is the asking price, and it appearsto still be on the market.Sorry about that!scotthttp://www.montara.com/Date: 07/24/95 11:07:54 AMFrom: Robert Wullenjohn (rw1_AT_primeu.cpuc.ca.gov)Subject: Re: Restaurants in Pacifica.Pacifica Thai is one of my favorite restaurants in Pacifica.  It's family owned and operated -- so they pay good attention to detail.  They have a good balanced menu including lots of vegetarian items.  Check out the "spicy eggplant" with or without beef -- also the curries, and lemon grass soup.  My meat eating friends like the delicatly prepared beef and "lemon chicken" dishes -- they describe it as having a festival in their mouth.    happy eats, from a "sharp park-er".Date: 07/24/95 01:45:35 PMFrom: Bruce Hallman (deadfish)Via: Netcom SFSubject: City Council meeting tonight, tunnel/Bypass on agendaAt 6 PM to roughly 9 PM, tonight, Monday July 24 the Pacifica City Council will be dicussing and voting on a resolution regarding the tunnel alternative to the Devil's Slide bypass.   '     *   . .      '      )     +         `  .     '     ` bruce_AT_hallman.org. +     .         ,    * ' .      '     .     http://www.hallman.org/~bruce/_/_/ ' _/_/ _/  _/_/  Subscribe to the pacifica-l EMail: listserv_AT_netcom.comDate: 07/25/95 06:30:08 AMFrom: Michael Slaughter (slaughtr_AT_crl.com)Subject: Boat Race [re: Hwy 1]Boat Race                                                      by Michael SlaughterI am sitting in our local version Sardi's one day last week, talking tothe owners of this and that, when who should walk in but Willy theWrench. He is given this moniker on account of his ability to fixmost things mechanical, which in this era of electronic junk is nosmall talent indeed.Willy gives me a medium-size hello and sits down. He does not lookin the best of spirits, and I inquire as to the source of his morbidity."I will tell you this," he begins. "Some strange things are happeningaround town of late and it is strange that some other things are nothappening." Because this does not make so much sense to me, andto cheer him up some small measure, I inquire as to what it is towhich he makes reference.He tells me as follows. "It is necessary to open up the coast, as weknow, and thus what is on people's minds is how to do it. Somepeople want a big road and some people want a little road, althoughit seems that most people are much in favor of finding out whether atunnel is not indeed a better solution to this vexing problem.""This I have heard," I inform him. "This is not what I call news."Willy orders an egg cream and a piece of cheesecake and gives me aweary smile. "I must tell you," he says, "when certain people havemade inquiries about the information that the Department ofHighways has about tunnels, the department suddenly becomeswaffle merchants. They can't find documents, won't releasedocuments, and demand you tell them in advance exactly what youwant that they don't have anyway. Furthermore, the changingnumbers they offer for tunnel construction do not make sense."I reply, "Willy, I do not wish to appear naive, but in this day and ageare they not indeed obligated to provide to the citizenry the totalityof their info and let the chips fall where they may?""As you correctly observe," he continues, "they are public servants,but they do not currently provide this information willingly and infact have essentially refused to provide same to the local electedcouncil of citizens who made a request of great formality.Furthermore, in the past, this same highway department seriouslymisled people about the cost and size of a tunnel. Is this not indeedstrange?""But Willy," I reason, "the Highway Department likes to buildhighways. They are not of a mind to construct tunnels. And besides,I seem to recall that there are certain parties who would benefitgreatly by building a superhighway down the coast. These partiesown much land that they wish to make certain uses of, which, thisbeing California real estate, is no small potatoes."Willy points a finger at me. He tells me, "You are beginning to getmy drift in this matter. Since, like most people, I do not look forwardto having a superhighway near here, I have been wondering who itis that might see such a thing as beneficial and who might want tomake it a done deal without anybody knowing about otherpossibilities." Willy takes a bite of cheesecake and gives a large sigh.He leans forward and says this: "Why do you think the people at thecounty level do not want the information about a tunnel to bebrought out? Why did they vote to build the highway no matterwhat? Why did the national rep take a duck like he was beingbeanballed? Why did the state rep make up all kinds of stories tosupport the superhighway?""But Willy," I say, "This seems to me politics as usual."He gives me a small smile and pats his wallet pocket. "You areindeed right. It's a boat race. The fix is in. And this is one thing I,Willy the Wrench, do not think I can repair. In fact, that why I amhere today. I am on my way to see our good friend Bob the Book toget in early on the action on this matter. I cannot forgive myself if Ido not take much advantage of a sure thing.""But, Willy," I ask, "I am trying, but as yet I do not understand whyare you unhappy. If this is a boat race, you might as well accept thesuperhighway--and thus you should be happy, as you will pick up muchlettuce from Bob the Book when the deal goes through.""That's just it," he says, "I am now afraid on account of peoplebeginning to ask too many questions and soon everybody will knowthis is not a straight deal, and then there will be no more odds, andI will collect no lettuce at all.""Willy," I say, "As a betting man, I will give you this advice: Do notbet against big organizations.""I know, I know," he says with a big frown. "That's the problem. Ifpeople organize, who knows what will happen?"                                -XXX-