Date: 03/23/95 04:32:35 PMTo: dave_AT_crl.com (dave_AT_crl.com)Via: Netcom AlamedaSubject: Pacifica Internet?Dave, I just noticed your name/address in the newsgroup ba.internet and that your are from Pacifica:I'm fishing around for people who might have ideas and interest in things towards an "online" Pacifica.  Perhaps a ba.pacifica newsgroup, or a pacifica listserv mailing list.  A Pacifica Web page?  Whatever...Am I the only one who would like to keep informed about local events, local politics, local recreation... and a cyber-Pacifica could do this just fine.Perhaps the City Council should post their agenda in a Web page.  Or why not the school lunch menus.  Or, surf reports.  Or, the Devil's slide debate.  Daycare, help wanted ads, garage sale notices.   You get the idea.Have you ever thought about things like this?Date: 03/28/95 08:19:17 AMFrom: Dave Yuhas (dave_AT_crl.com)Via: Netcom AlamedaSubject: Re: Pacifica Internet?From dave_AT_crl.com Fri Mar 24 17:03:03 1995Return-Path: Received: from mail.crl.com by netcom16.netcom.com (8.6.10/Netcom)	id RAA12302; Fri, 24 Mar 1995 17:03:01 -0800Received: from crl6.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA00522  (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 24 Mar 1995 17:02:45 -0800Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 17:02:45 -0800Message-Id: <199503250102.AA00522_AT_mail.crl.com>X-Sender: dave_AT_mail.crl.comX-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4Mime-Version: 1.0Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"To: deadfish_AT_netcom.com (Bruce Hallman)From: dave_AT_crl.com (Dave Yuhas)Subject: Re: Pacifica Internet?Status: RBruce,Funny you should ask...Last Monday I sent a fax to the Pacifica Chamber of Commerce telling themabout the opportunity to put a Pacifica Web page on City.net.  No responseso far.A year or so ago I tried to get an "online Pacifica" thing going on aPacifica BBS.  Zip response.  I called the city manager's office and told them about Santa Monica'ssystem.  You could practically hear the yawn through the phone.There are probably plenty of people in Pacifica who would welcome Pacificainformation on line somewhere, whether a Web page or a newsgroup.  If you want to get something going, I'll be glad to help.Thanks for getting touch.------------------------------------------------------------->Dave, >>I just noticed your name/address in the newsgroup ba.internet and that your >are from Pacifica:>>I'm fishing around for people who might have ideas and interest in things >towards an "online" Pacifica.  Perhaps a ba.pacifica newsgroup, or a >pacifica listserv mailing list.  A Pacifica Web page?  Whatever...>>Am I the only one who would like to keep informed about local events, local >politics, local recreation... and a cyber-Pacifica could do this just fine.>>Perhaps the City Council should post their agenda in a Web page.  Or why not >the school lunch menus.  Or, surf reports.  Or, the Devil's slide debate.  >Daycare, help wanted ads, garage sale notices.   You get the idea.>>Have you ever thought about things like this?>> '     *   . .      '           +         `  .        ) *     ' bruce hallman> . +   .        ,    * ' .      '     . `     . *     .   deadfish_AT_netcom.com>. _/_/ ' _/_/_/  _/  _/_/   '   NEW! => URL http://www.netgate.net/~deadfish/>>-------------------------------------------------------------Dave Yuhas          |      Christine Krenzel, CPAdave_AT_crl.com        |      415-495-1916 / 415-777-9798 (fax)-------------------------------------------------------------Date: 03/28/95 12:58:05 PMTo: Dave Yuhas (dave_AT_crl.com)Via: Netcom AlamedaSubject: Re: Pacifica Internet?Dave,>>Bruce,>>Funny you should ask...>>Last Monday I sent a fax to the Pacifica Chamber of Commerce telling them>about the opportunity to put a Pacifica Web page on City.net.  No response>so far.The thing about Web pages is that they are what the author(s) make them.  I already have a (Small) Pacifica Web page on my account.  I can grow, on my account, and anywhere else, and be linked with hypertext.>>A year or so ago I tried to get an "online Pacifica" thing going on a>Pacifica BBS.  Zip response.  I am not surprised at a low response, this project will need to grow to a certain "critical mass" to become well used.  Publicity will be a factor, but the "content" must be useful for it to sustain.>I called the city manager's office and told them about Santa Monica's>system.  You could practically hear the yawn through the phone.My guess is that Charlie English, and basically everybody on the City Council are technophobes.  (Maybe excepting Maxine Gonsolves.)  What they don't realize is that if they don't cooperate, there is nothing they can do to stop anyone from doing whatever they want to make an "on-line Paficica".  I think that it is likely that an "online Pacifica" network could serve as a popular, powerful and efficient "grass roots" organizing tool, which quickly would get their attention through "Calls to Action", online petition drives, etc..  An effective grassroots political organization could get their attention loud and quick.>There are probably plenty of people in Pacifica who would welcome Pacifica>information on line somewhere, whether a Web page or a newsgroup.  Finding the interested people is a challange.  I think that if we get an interesting Web page up and running, then the Trib would do a feature article on it, (especially if we wrote the copy for them).A Pacifica listserv mailing list is probably the the best "roundtable" type forum, I think a newsgroup would have too little traffic at first, and a mailing list could be graduated into a newsgroup at a later date.  A Web page already exists (mine) and the extent and direction of the growth only depends on what people choose to publish.  I think that the surfers might be interested in a Surfing Pacifica page, and someone at the High School(s) surely would what to publish too.  Not to mention the library, etc..>If you want to get something going, I'll be glad to help.I am motivated to work on this, but I will need to budget my time, as I do it in my "spare" time at work.  Fifteen minutes a day is roughly what I can spare.  Someone could start a Pacifica mailing list today.  Someone could register the internet domain name pacifica.org and/or pacifica.gov, to be sure to get "dibs" on the names.  I don't know how to do either of these things, but I doubt they are hard to do.Also, buying space on a Web server might make sense, the one which I rent at Netgate charges $10/month.  >Thanks for getting touch.Also, in respone to your ba.general post, Last fall I floated the idea of a ba.pacifica on the ba.config group (I think or was it ba.groups?).  In any case, they argued that I should first show that there is the traffic before they start a group.  [A chicken and the egg problem.]  If we were to get traffic on a listserv type list, that could be transfered to a newsgroup later.  Also no one says you have to use "ba." heirarchy, another heirarchy could be used (or started).  I think we need to round up about two dozen (non-lurking) readers before ba.* would be convinced to accept a ba.pacifica newsgroup.>------------------------------------------------------------->>>Dave, >>>>I just noticed your name/address in the newsgroup ba.internet and that you>>are from Pacifica:>>>>I'm fishing around for people who might have ideas and interest in things>>towards an "online" Pacifica.  Perhaps a ba.pacifica newsgroup, or a >>pacifica listserv mailing list.  A Pacifica Web page?  Whatever...>>>>Am I the only one who would like to keep informed about local events, loca>>politics, local recreation... and a cyber-Pacifica could do this just fine>>>>Perhaps the City Council should post their agenda in a Web page.  Or why n>>the school lunch menus.  Or, surf reports.  Or, the Devil's slide debate. >>Daycare, help wanted ads, garage sale notices.   You get the idea.>>>>Have you ever thought about things like this?>>Date: 03/29/95 01:12:48 PMFrom: Dave Yuhas (dave_AT_crl.com)Via: Netcom SFSubject: Re: Pacifica Internet?From dave_AT_crl.com Wed Mar 29 09:09:03 1995Return-Path: Received: from mail.crl.com by netcom9.netcom.com (8.6.11/Netcom)	id JAA10936; Wed, 29 Mar 1995 09:09:03 -0800Received: from crl7.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA08000  (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 29 Mar 1995 09:09:24 -0800Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 09:09:24 -0800Message-Id: <199503291709.AA08000_AT_mail.crl.com>X-Sender: dave_AT_mail.crl.comX-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4Mime-Version: 1.0Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"To: deadfish_AT_netcom.com (Bruce Hallman)From: dave_AT_crl.com (Dave Yuhas)Subject: Re: Pacifica Internet?Status: RBruce,I'll check with my ISP and a few of the other local ones to find out if oneof them would host the mailing list.  I think a listserv is the best way togo at this point.  Once it's up I can talk to the Tribune about inserting anotice.BTW, Pacifica does have a Web page - of sorts.  Check outhttp://www.abag.ca.gov/abag/local_gov/city/Pacifica.html-------------------------------------------------------------Dave Yuhas          |      Christine Krenzel, CPAdave_AT_crl.com        |      415-495-1916 / 415-777-9798 (fax)-------------------------------------------------------------Date: 03/29/95 04:10:44 PMTo: Dave Yuhas (dave_AT_crl.com)Via: Netcom SFSubject: Re: Pacifica Internet?My ISP will host a "majordomo" mailing list for me for no cost, though I hesitate slightly to volunteer to manage a "pacifica-l" mailing list as I don't know how much of a drain on my time it might be.  The "majordomo" mailing lists are very similar to the "listserv" type.  Not having run one before, I a don't really know how to administer one, but I think we want what is called an "unmoderated open" list.  I think you need to set up a few alias' for header, footer, on-error routines.I had seen that "abag" web page before, but it was seriously out of date.  I just checked it and they have updated, so I have just added a link to it in my http://www.netgate.net/~deadfish/pacifica.html page.  Have you checked the Pacifica Restaurants page? [a link can be found in my Web page].I am curious what you think a Pacifica Web page could/should include?  Do you have any ideas of something you wanted to do?  I can spare some space on my Web server account for you.I am also curious what you think people will use a "pacifica-l" mailing list for?>>Bruce,>>I'll check with my ISP and a few of the other local ones to find out if on>of them would host the mailing list.  I think a listserv is the best way t>go at this point.  Once it's up I can talk to the Tribune about inserting >notice.>>BTW, Pacifica does have a Web page - of sorts.  Check out>http://www.abag.ca.gov/abag/local_gov/>city/Pacifica.html>>------------------------------------------------------------->Dave Yuhas          |      Christine Krenzel, CPA>dave_AT_crl.com        |      415-495-1916 / 415-777-9798 (fax)>------------------------------------------------------------->>Date: 03/31/95 01:59:19 PMFrom: Dave Yuhas (dave_AT_crl.com)Via: Netcom SFSubject: Re: Pacifica Internet?From dave_AT_crl.com Fri Mar 31 08:48:07 1995Return-Path: Received: from mail.crl.com by mail.netcom.com (8.6.11/Netcom)	id IAA28274; Fri, 31 Mar 1995 08:47:54 -0800Received: from crl4.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA11820  (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 31 Mar 1995 08:48:02 -0800Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 08:48:02 -0800Message-Id: <199503311648.AA11820_AT_mail.crl.com>X-Sender: dave_AT_mail.crl.comX-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4Mime-Version: 1.0Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"To: deadfish_AT_netcom.com (Bruce Hallman)From: dave_AT_crl.com (Dave Yuhas)Subject: Re: Pacifica Internet?Status: RBruce,>My ISP will host a "majordomo" mailing list for me for no cost, though I >hesitate slightly to volunteer to manage a "pacifica-l" mailing list as I >don't know how much of a drain on my time it might be.  The "majordomo" >mailing lists are very similar to the "listserv" type.  Not having run one >before, I a don't really know how to administer one, but I think we want >what is called an "unmoderated open" list.  I think you need to set up a few >alias' for header, footer, on-error routines.I really couldn't say how much time managing the list would take, but Ithink it would be minimal.  From what I've seen as an end user, most of thetime you spend "administering" will be telling users to sendsubscribe/unsubscribe messages to the proper address.  Your ISP couldprobably give you some idea on the time necessary to manage the list.>I am curious what you think a Pacifica Web page could/should include?  Do >you have any ideas of something you wanted to do?  I can spare some space on >my Web server account for you.I tried to interest the Chamber of Commerce in a Web page that would be partof the city.net system.  Basically a promotional page for the city.  I thinkPalo Alto's page is pretty good (http://www.city.palo-alto.ca.us/home.html).>I am also curious what you think people will use a "pacifica-l" mailing list >for?What do people use mailing lists for? To discuss topics that interest them.It's a way to share information and meet people you ordinarily would nevermeet with face to face.  I'd like to see the city post information on thelist like City Council meeting agendas.-------------------------------------------------------------Dave Yuhas          |      Christine Krenzel, CPAdave_AT_crl.com        |      415-495-1916 / 415-777-9798 (fax)-------------------------------------------------------------Date: 03/31/95 02:56:44 PMTo: Dave Yuhas (dave_AT_crl.com)Via: Netcom SFSubject: pacifica-l mailing list is off and running!>Bruce,>>>My ISP will host a "majordomo" mailing list I just sent off a request to start a: "pacifica-l_AT_netcom.com"     mailing list, I think it takes about a week for my request to take effect.  I hope I don't regret doing this. .Give me a couple weeks to get it debugged before telling people about it.>I tried to interest the Chamber of Commerce in a Web page that would be par>of the city.net system.  Basically a promotional page for the city.  I thin>Palo Alto's page is pretty good (http://www.city.palo-alto.ca.us/home.html)You don't need anybody's help/permission/cooperation to do a Web page.  I think that the technophobes will join later when they see that "online Pacifica" is a working useful thing.  At this point, we need to get it started, and in the future it can grow and develop as people see fit.After we get some things going, we can send in a "press release" to the Tribune and that should develope some interest.  I don't think it is wise to publicize prematurely, as people will form an initial impression the first time they see it.  We want at least a little substance before we expose ourselves to initial impressions.  [We don't want to embarass ourselves.]Date: 04/02/95 10:28:29 AMFrom: netmail_AT_netcom.com (netmail_AT_netcom.com)Via: Netcom SFSubject: Your Majordomo list "pacifica-l" has been createdFrom netmail Fri Mar 31 16:52:55 1995Return-Path: Received: by netcom20.netcom.com (8.6.11/Netcom)	id QAA24658; Fri, 31 Mar 1995 16:52:00 -0800Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 16:52:00 -0800Message-Id: <199504010052.QAA24658_AT_netcom20.netcom.com>From: netmail_AT_netcom.comTo: deadfishSubject: Your Majordomo list "pacifica-l" has been createdStatus: ROMajordomo address:      # listserv_AT_netcom.comMajordomo-Owner address:# listserv-Owner_AT_netcom.comList posting address:	# pacifica-l_AT_netcom.comList request address:	# pacifica-l-request_AT_netcom.comList password:		# rcijx8tpYour mailing list has been established.  It is being served by anautomated mailing list manager that responds to commands emailed tothe "Majordomo address" listed above.  This message has all the detailsof how to manage your list remotely using Majordomo.  If you have anyquestions, refer them to the Majordomo-Owner address listed above.The list will be fully active by 6 PM tonight; you may not be ableto use it before that time.There's a lot of info here, so please read this completely andcarefully, and save it for future reference.  If you have any questions,you should send them to the Majordomo-Owner address above.Your list-owner password is shown above.  Keep track of this; you'llneed it later.  Instructions for changing your password are below.As soon as possible, please issue a "newinfo" command for yourlist (see below) to create the file that someone will receive whenthey join or ask about your list.You can issue a "who" command for your list to see who's already on yourlist.  You may or may not already be subscribed to your own list.================The Gory Details================Your mailing list is managed by an automated mailing list managementprogram called Majordomo.  Majordomo should free you from dealingwith most of the administrivia usually associated with running mailinglists (adding users, dropping users, etc.).To submit something to your list, you (or anybody else) should simplymail it to the list posting address shown at the top of this file.If somebody sends something to list request address shown above (whichis the traditional Internet way of being added to a mailing list), they'llget back a message telling them how to use Majordomo for routine requests,and how to contact you if they need to speak to a human being.To be added to your list, a user simply sends a message of the form    subscribe your-list-nameby email to the Majordomo address shown above.Majordomo understands several commands, and is not limited to asingle command per message (it will process commands until reachingend-of-message or the command "end").  The command "help" will tellyou about all the other commands.The commands which Majordomo understands and which arefor everyone to use are:    subscribe  [
]    unsubscribe  [
]    which [
]    who     info     lists    help    endYou can get detailed explanations of all of these by asking for "help"from Majordomo.Types of Lists==============Majordomo understands several types of lists.  A list may have multipletypes; for instance, it may be "closed", "private", and "moderated".Regardless of the type of list, the list owner (you) will get email everytime someone successfully subscribes to or unsubscribes from your list. When someone successfully subscribes, they get a message from Majordomowelcoming them to the list, and including the "info" file for the listso that they know the ground rules, archive location, and so forth.The first and simplest type of list is an "open" list.  If a list is"open", a user can add themselves to or drop themselves from the list. If they try to subscribe or unsubscribe somebody else, though, Majordomoasks for your approval. Another type of list is a "closed" list, then the list owner (that's you)must approve all subscriptions to the list (see below for informationabout approving Majordomo commands).An "auto" list is one where Majordomo performs _all_ requests (eventhose that apply to addresses other than that of the person making therequest) without checking with the list owner for approval.  The listowner is still notified of all successful "subscribe" and "unsubscribe"requests, of course.Still another kind of list is a "private" list.  If a list is a "private"list, then only people who are on the list will be able to do a "who" command(to see who else is on the list), "index" command (to see what list-relatedfiles are available), or "get" command (to retrieve a list-related file).Bounced Messages================Majordomo may bounce certain messages that people attempt to post toyour mailing list.  These messages may be bounced because they appearto be administrative requests (i.e., someone mailed a request to subscribeor unsubscribe to the posting address rather than to Majordomo or to the-request address), because they are too long, or for any of a number ofother reasons.Majordomo will forward these messages to you in another message whosesubject line begins with the word "BOUNCE"; the subject line will alsoindicate the name of the list the message was bounced from (in case youmanage more than one list) and the reason the message was bounced.Moderation==========If your list is moderated, then messages without an "Approved:" line arebounced, just as described above.  To cause them to be posted to the list,you add a valid "Approved:" line and send them back, just as described above.Again, if you're able to use it, the "approve" program automates all this.If you have any questions about all of this, send them to the Majordomo-Owneraddress shown at the top of this file.Date: 04/03/95 08:58:44 AMFrom: Dave Yuhas (dyuhas_AT_aimnet.com)To: deadfish_AT_netcom.com (Bruce Hallman)From: dave_AT_crl.com (Dave Yuhas)Subject: Re: pacifica-l is open for business!Status: RBruce,>I wonder how we can attract subscribers?Thanks for taking the initiative to get the list going.  As for attractingsubscribers, the first thing that comes to mind is an announcement inba.internet.  I also think there's a way to get a new list mentioned in oneof the news.* groups, but I wouldn't know how to go about it.-------------------------------------------------------------Dave Yuhas          |      Christine Krenzel, CPAdave_AT_crl.com        |      415-495-1916 / 415-777-9798 (fax)-------------------------------------------------------------